What do you do here?

dwbrown7680

dwbrown7680

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This is early on in the $50 1r 1a on FTP. I realize the mistake in limping UTG with A7s, but that aside, what would you do here?

full tilt poker Game #6165624973: $18,500 Guarantee (1r+1a) (46259221), Table 11 - 10/20 - No Limit Hold'em - 22:37:40 ET - 2008/04/24
Seat 1: Cognitive20 (1,530)
Seat 2: jandyx1 (2,750)
Seat 3: MagnumVI (1,470)
Seat 4: BIG SMOKE RICKY (1,870)
Seat 5: icudonk (2,910)
Seat 6: Petie_BigStacks (3,430)
Seat 7: bennylor (510)
Seat 8: SteveBauer03 (3,000)
Seat 9: dwbrown7680 (2,060)
bennylor posts the small blind of 10
SteveBauer03 posts the big blind of 20
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to dwbrown7680 [7c Ac]
dwbrown7680 calls 20
Cognitive20 folds
jandyx1 folds
MagnumVI has 15 seconds left to act
MagnumVI folds
BIG SMOKE RICKY calls 20
icudonk calls 20
Petie_BigStacks folds
bennylor folds
SteveBauer03 checks
*** FLOP *** [Td 8c Ad]
SteveBauer03 checks
dwbrown7680 bets 90
BIG SMOKE RICKY raises to 180
icudonk folds
SteveBauer03 folds
dwbrown7680 calls 90
*** TURN *** [Td 8c Ad] [7s]
dwbrown7680 checks
BIG SMOKE RICKY bets 450
dwbrown7680 ????
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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As played, you have to raise or fold as a check/call will give you no info on the strength of your hand.
But if your not too keen on raising the turn then you have to fold this.
 
S

soonerdel

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i would call and check call the river
 
dwbrown7680

dwbrown7680

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Well i put his range on a flush draw, 10,8, A10 or A8....but through his looser play really thought it was one of the 1st two.....so when he bet 450 I thought about it for a sec and then shoved in on him....he tanked for a bit then folded.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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Well i put his range on a flush draw, 10,8, A10 or A8....but through his looser play really thought it was one of the 1st two.....so when he bet 450 I thought about it for a sec and then shoved in on him....he tanked for a bit then folded.

I don't see how you can put him on a flush draw here. I think you were in a WA/WB situation. Much more likely to be ahead, and I think you would extract more value by calling the turn and check calling (safe) or check raising (guts) the river than by shoving the turn.
 
dwbrown7680

dwbrown7680

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I agree with Shine 100% tho, check calling is way too weak of a move and leaves me gaining no info and praying i'm ahead....I agree that I could have flatted and saw the river, but it was a rather draw heavy board and didnt feel like letting him see for cheap
 
Steveg1976

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you don't need information in this case, check calling limits you mistakes in this hand. Two pair is not a strong enough hand in this spot to be raising with but by checking and calling you will induce enough bluffs and raises with worse hands to make calling a good play.
 
B

Bentheman87

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I don't get the people at CC who are constantly saying "you can't just call, you have to raise or fold". There are situations where that's true but why is this one of them? Your hand is strong enough to call but not quite strong enough to raise, there's a possible straight now and better two pairs, but your opponent could easily have just one pair, maybe ace 9, or a smaller two pair like 10 8.
 
Steveg1976

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Checking has it place in this hand I totally agree. Raising tends to be the standard TAG answer to most hands in this forum as the hands tend to be without context.
 
P

p0K35

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ok, I don't get most of this...

Your preflop mistake was not raising preflop, with what A7o??? Ok, leave that aside.

ok, ok, flop [Td 8c Ad]
checked to you, and bet small, find out where you at, right?
get raised, and you flat call???

why the call? [stop]continue, what card(s) are you hoping for to improve your hand?[/stop]

but you flat call, and hit the 'kicker' is not an issue, miracle card? yes/no?

Ok???, guess this is where I'm missing something...

raise, or flat call to preserve your tbl image?

I don't get it, my bad.
 
dwbrown7680

dwbrown7680

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Ok....when i said i realize the mistake in limping UTG with A7s, it wasn't that I didnt raise, it's the fact I played the hand at all.....the ONLY reason that I limped in with it was that blinds were 10/20 and I was looking for a good flop. On the flop I have top pair, decent kicker....I bet out the pot to see where i'm at and get min raised....this can mean one of 2 things....he either has me hopelessly crushed already at this point or is doing it as a bluff/semi-bluff. Based on the hands i'd seen so far with him I reckoned that he wasn't limping a strong ace, but 10,8s or 8's were a very good possibility, along with a flush draw. Because of the min-raise, I rule out 9,J for the most part, as most people in this situation are flatting, not min raising with no made hand.

The turn then gives me 2 pair, aces up. The board reads A,10,8,7. So at this point i'm ahead of 80-85% of his range. This is also an interesting spot as I check and he bets out pot this time, for 450. Realistically I now think he has either two pair (10,8...maybe A8) or a pair with a flush draw. He could have a set of 8's, and there would be nothing wrong in potting it with the draws shown out there.

So in this situation I can either fold, call/check call river, or shove. I end up chosing the shove option, because as stated previously, i'm ahead of most his range, still have FE, and don't want to let him see a river for cheap if he is drawing. I really think folding two pair here is a weak move, and so is the check/call. I'm not saying the check/call option isn't useful in some places, I just don't feel this is one of them.

In the end, I'd rather take my chances at this point and build a stack early, instead of conceiding or laying down. Who knows, he could still fold as well (which he does). This is also a good hand to build table image and show agression, which in the end is what's going to get you to those top 3 spots. Sorry if you don't agree with me but this is my 2 cents and what went through my mind as the hand played out.
 
dwbrown7680

dwbrown7680

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This was after the hand (obv :) )

dwbrown7680 folds
dwbrown7680: hey big what did you have?
Cognitive20 folds
jandyx1 folds
MagnumVI has 15 seconds left to act
MagnumVI folds
BIG SMOKE RICKY calls 20
BIG SMOKE RICKY: JQ of dia
icudonk folds
Petie_BigStacks calls 20
bennylor folds
SteveBauer03 checks
 
P

p0K35

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ok, as posted, guess i missed the whole shebang (the whole ymtc thingy)...

You played the hand fine and won, so who am I to retort, lol.

If you believe the chat, and know they have QJd, would you play it out differently?

Nevermind, I think:

Bentheman87 Call and check call on the river.

Is ok, passive and safe, which is ok.

at a $50 buyin, that may be a better move than the 'shove-they fold' . Why?

Who calls you here?

Not really running the full numbers, but, you check raise them allin, at the expense of your stack, and they chat back???

If you think your good here, call and extract more chips on the river, or make a better check raise, min like?

Nevermind...
 
bob_tiger

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ok, as posted, guess i missed the whole shebang (the whole ymtc thingy)...

You played the hand fine and won, so who am I to retort, lol.

If you believe the chat, and know they have QJd, would you play it out differently?

Nevermind, I think:

Bentheman87 Call and check call on the river.

Is ok, passive and safe, which is ok.

at a $50 buyin, that may be a better move than the 'shove-they fold' . Why?

Who calls you here?

Not really running the full numbers, but, you check raise them allin, at the expense of your stack, and they chat back???

If you think your good here, call and extract more chips on the river, or make a better check raise, min like?

Nevermind...

umm...why do you want to make your decision harder on the river? what if he hits one of his outs. One thing that drives me nuts about you is, you wait until you see the results and then you post some idiotic advice. It is very easy to tell people what to do after the results are already shown.
Also you are suggestings to raise utg with A7? :confused: there is nothing wrong with check calling like u said but this is not the spot to do it, you want to take down the pot right now and not screw around on the river with all of the draws out there. Like dwbrown said he wants to build a stack and table image right now so its worth taking a shot and shoving here, since once again like he said he is ahead of most hands the villain might have on the turn.
 
E

erille

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This is why you do not limp with a7 this early... I would have folded on flop when he raises you.
 
P

p0K35

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trolling is what trolling does...

umm...why do you want to make your decision harder on the river?

folding the dumb A preflop is the correct play.

what if he hits one of his outs.

Well, dumb A just turned the kicker issue into Aces up. So I guess they really hit 1 of their outs, so allin!

One thing that drives me nuts about you is, you wait until you see the results and then you post some idiotic advice. It is very easy to tell people what to do after the results are already shown.

I would wait before the people post their drivel, but they seem to ignore the pre hypnotic suggestions I offer, and well, you get some of these posts.

I don't wait for the results, THEY posted!

Also you are suggestings to raise utg with A7?

...when i said i realize the mistake in limping UTG with A7s, it wasn't that I didnt raise, it's the fact I played the hand at all..

Does that clear things up?

guess not, who calls the allin, when A dumb, makes that move?
 
dwbrown7680

dwbrown7680

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Sigh....Pok you're not really grasping what I did and why I did it. When I turn aces up, I decide that at that specific point, that I have the best hand, and shove back at him to take it down. I don't feel like extracting more, I don't feel like seeing a river. The board is entirely too drawy for my liking and I'd like it to end there. I have enough FE to push out those drawy hands and end it there, which is what I did and what happened. I posted here to get good advice and responses, but when you start calling me Dumb A or whatever it was, I no longer value anything that is going to come out of your mouth. I do just fine on my own and don't need your opinions....I'll stick to people like bob and shine and AG (gasp!) when it comes to these matters, thanks.
 
P

p0K35

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Sigh....Pok you're not really grasping what I did and why I did it. ...

No, I'm allin on what you did and why?

But just tell me who calls you here? Perhaps, me?

If I do, you beat, semper fi

[corny]When you play as bad as your opponents, you are that bad, too[/corny]

u won the hand, but you put your tourney life on the line to do it. smells fishy to me...
 
bob_tiger

bob_tiger

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Pok just curious what sites do you play on, whats your name on them and how much $ have you won online?
 
dwbrown7680

dwbrown7680

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No, I'm allin on what you did and why?

But just tell me who calls you here? Perhaps, me?

If I do, you beat, semper fi

[corny]When you play as bad as your opponents, you are that bad, too[/corny]

u won the hand, but you put your tourney life on the line to do it. smells fishy to me...

A) who calls me there? someone trying to do the same thing I am, build a stack or take a shot....AGAIN, i pushed because I knew at that point (or rather felt) that I had the best hand and didnt want to leave it cheap for him to draw to a better hand....period...point blank.

B) I'm not one to glorify myself, and I know I still have leaks to plug, but I am not a bad player and do just fine for myself, ty.

C) So, you're saying you've never put your tourny life on the line to try and build a stack or stop a drawing hand from calling you to beat you? You've probably never really ran that deep in MTT's then, have you?
 
P

p0K35

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who calls me there? someone trying to do the same thing I am, build a stack or take a shot...

still not answering...

caller has you beat, get over it, move along...
 
dwbrown7680

dwbrown7680

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lol....you're right....i'm extremely far behind 100% of the calling range there....you win I lose, gg
 
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