What to do with this Hand?

[AceHoldOn]

These types of hands have just been killing me lately. Later stages of a tournament. And I have from 10-25 big blinds left, and get dealt a pretty good starting hand. Not Aces or Kings, but hands like a,j, a,q 88-1010. But, I have been just been getting absolutely clobbered the way I have been playing them. So, can someone walk me through these types of hands, and tell me how you would proceeed. Here is the 1st hand.


pokerstars Game #11209255637: Tournament #54228409, Freeroll Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2007/07/29 - 22:33:21 (ET)
Table '54228409 113' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: XFalseHopeX (5655 in chips)
Seat 2: Doc T River (4761 in chips)
Seat 3: Neviros (7893 in chips)
Seat 4: Pookster1962 (7083 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: AceHoldOn (5845 in chips)
Seat 6: 5cardraw408 (10465 in chips)
Seat 7: Bezerk_U2 (8826 in chips)
Seat 8: zoenation (761 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 9: flopadelic (3470 in chips)
XFalseHopeX: posts the ante 25
Doc T River: posts the ante 25
Neviros: posts the ante 25
Pookster1962: posts the ante 25
AceHoldOn: posts the ante 25
5cardraw408: posts the ante 25
Bezerk_U2: posts the ante 25
zoenation: posts the ante 25
flopadelic: posts the ante 25
flopadelic: posts small blind 200
XFalseHopeX: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AceHoldOn [Ac Qh]
Doc T River: calls 400
Neviros: calls 400
Pookster1962: folds
AceHoldOn:

What do I do here? About 15 BB's left. I think my hand is best here. Should I raise and try to isolate, limp behind or I am even considering an all in. Is it too early to move all in? I don't mind moving all in here, but I have just read so many articles saying what a bad play it is. When is the right time to move all in these situations? Is moving all in the standard line here? Walk me through how I should proceed. Thanks all.

 

[Emperor IX]

I would raise about 1,200 MAYBE 1,600 here, then push the flop regardless, though an argument can be made for pushing outright, seeing as you'll be picking up 2k if no one calls

 

[shinedown.45]

I agree with the raise here, two players limp in the pot before you and now you should raise to 1600 just to punish all limpers.

 

[AceHoldOn]

I lost the hand history for this hand. But I did raise to like 2100, a middle pos. player called and the 2 limpers folded. The flop came Jack high with three of the same suit as my Q, I pushed the flop and he called with A,J. Like I said these hands have just been killing me. In this example, if I pushed preflop I probably pick it up there, but instead I raise, and loose my whole stack. Here's another example of a similiar hand what's the move here?


full tilt poker Game #3093305269: $200 Railbirds Ranking Freeroll (21371749), Table 98 - 80/160 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:22:53 ET - 2007/07/29
Seat 1: Archaeon (12,440)
Seat 2: pfred88 (1,625)
Seat 3: bobcat57 (1,865)
Seat 4: shells19 (7,035)
Seat 5: fluffyqueen (20,729)
Seat 6: mcperoff (1,540)
Seat 7: AceHoldOn (1,495)
Seat 8: Katchagirl (7,265)
Seat 9: patriots846 (4,730)
bobcat57 posts the small blind of 80
shells19 posts the big blind of 160
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AceHoldOn [Ts Th]
fluffyqueen folds
mcperoff folds
AceHoldOn ...?

Blinds are big and I have less than 10x the BB. Is a stop and GO the best play here? (Raise to about 600 and push any flop. Or shold I move all in preflop) What's the best move?

 

[dj11]

Position position postion.

AQ early, I have got to the point where I finally understand that this is a foldable hand. I don't do it every time in this position, but I divorced myself from it. I do NOT want to be paying alimony to this hand.

TT, limp if you must, in this position drop it like a hot potato to any aggression preflop. If you hit the flop with a set, do not hesitate, take what you can right then and there. If you miss the flop, do not pursue this.

You are talking tourney's here, not ring games. In ring games you can rebuy or recover, not in tourneys.

 

[tosborn]

In the second hand, I agree with most of what DJ is saying. However, the following line is bit overly weak to me.

TT, limp if you must, in this position drop it like a hot potato to any aggression preflop.

I agree that limping is probably the best course of action. But, if there is only one raise in front of you, go ahead and push. There are only four hands that beat you right now. And I can see all kinds of hands that would standard raise that you can beat.

I feel that I am an above average post flop player and can outplay most opponents. The general rule with an M of 6 (read Harrington on Holdem 2 if you don't understand the concept of M) is not to be in push/fold mode yet. We can still maneuver a little.

 

[AceHoldOn]

Position position postion.

AQ early, I have got to the point where I finally understand that this is a foldable hand. I don't do it every time in this position, but I divorced myself from it. I do NOT want to be paying alimony to this hand.

TT, limp if you must, in this position drop it like a hot potato to any aggression preflop. If you hit the flop with a set, do not hesitate, take what you can right then and there. If you miss the flop, do not pursue this.

You are talking tourney's here, not ring games. In ring games you can rebuy or recover, not in tourneys.

I understand what you are saying. But in this hand, I am not talking about how to play 10,10 in general, I am talking about playing it when you are short stacked. In the hand that I posted I had less than 10BB's remaining. Is limping really the best way to play it in this situation?

 

[AceHoldOn]

I feel that I am an above average post flop player and can outplay most opponents. The general rule with an M of 6 (read Harrington on Holdem 2 if you don't understand the concept of M) is not to be in push/fold mode yet. We can still maneuver a little.

OK, this answers a lot of my questions. With these types of hands 88-JJ A,J-A,K, when I get short stacked I have a lot of trouble with how to proceed. You think with my current stack, in the 1010 hand, I still have enough room to raise and play postflop?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

AQ early, I have got to the point where I finally understand that this is a foldable hand. I don't do it every time in this position, but I divorced myself from it. I do NOT want to be paying alimony to this hand.

You're seriously advocating folding AQ here when we're faced with nothing but two EP limps?

I don't mind shoving the AQ hand - we have one of those tricky stack sizes given the action so far whereby a standard raise commits a hefty chunk of our stack but a shove seems excessive. I'm more likely to veer on the side of shoving with AQ, because if we are going to be racing (which we shouldn't mind too much because of the dead money in the pot) we want to guarantee seeing all five board cards.

TT, limp if you must, in this position drop it like a hot potato to any aggression preflop. If you hit the flop with a set, do not hesitate, take what you can right then and there. If you miss the flop, do not pursue this.

I agree that limping is probably the best course of action. But, if there is only one raise in front of you, go ahead and push. There are only four hands that beat you right now. And I can see all kinds of hands that would standard raise that you can beat.

Limping TT with <10BBs? Sorry guys but this is horrible - TT here is an absolutely standard preflop shove.

I feel that I am an above average post flop player and can outplay most opponents. The general rule with an M of 6 (read Harrington on Holdem 2 if you don't understand the concept of M) is not to be in push/fold mode yet. We can still maneuver a little.

The main issue I have with this is that with limited stacks it is more difficult to take advantage of one's postflop edge, as (a) most of the decision making will be undertaken preflop, and (b) our postflop decisions will usually be limited to push or fold. When you drop to ~10BBs, the game becomes much more about playing perfect preflop poker (lol alliteration) than applying any postflop edge.

 

[Ronaldadio]

AQ - 1200 bet, fold if any further action. I also think an all in is possible.

1010 - all in. If u come up against a bigger pair, tough

 

[AceHoldOn]

You're seriously advocating folding AQ here when we're faced with nothing but two EP limps?

I don't mind shoving the AQ hand - we have one of those tricky stack sizes given the action so far whereby a standard raise commits a hefty chunk of our stack but a shove seems excessive. I'm more likely to veer on the side of shoving with AQ, because if we are going to be racing (which we shouldn't mind too much because of the dead money in the pot) we want to guarantee seeing all five board cards.

quote]


Dorkus, good resonse. This is why I posted these hands, because of the "tricky" stack sizes. When my stack is anywhere from 8-20BB in a tournament I keep having trouble playing these kinds of hands. Wanted to get some feedback from other players on how they played these types of hands. Is there a general guideline that you follow? Or do you just play these hands more on feel?

 

[AceHoldOn]

Here is one more of these types of hands. Just trying to get a feel for how you guys play them. Is a Pre flop push standard, or is another line better?

Full Tilt poker game #3095320020: 2008 ME Fantasy Freeroll (22945547), Table 23 - 300/600 Ante 75 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:48:58 ET - 2007/07/29
Seat 1: thedrunkguy (31,695)
Seat 2: metaphyzix (5,280)
Seat 3: Radish85 (6,600)
Seat 4: Wells Bell (39,392)
Seat 6: pazoNe (9,630)
Seat 7: mcash2 (11,165)
Seat 8: AceHoldOn (7,215)
Seat 9: KiwiVic (15,347)
thedrunkguy antes 75
metaphyzix antes 75
Radish85 antes 75
Wells Bell antes 75
pazoNe antes 75
mcash2 antes 75
AceHoldOn antes 75
KiwiVic antes 75
Radish85 posts the small blind of 300
Wells Bell posts the big blind of 600
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to AceHoldOn [Jd As]
pazoNe folds
mcash2 folds
AceHoldOn Push, Raise, FOld, or Call?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

That's somewhat different from the AQ hand because (a) obviously our hand is a little weaker, (b) there's (in BB terms) less dead money in the pot, and (c) there are two very big stacks left to act, one of which is the BB.

I'm not averse to just folding in that example, most likely fold > shove > standard raise > limp. Identifying the little nuances that make 'similar' hands different from each other is a great way to build your confidence and ensure that more often than not you're making the 'right' decision.

 

[AceHoldOn]

That's somewhat different from the AQ hand because (a) obviously our hand is a little weaker, (b) there's (in BB terms) less dead money in the pot, and (c) there are two very big stacks left to act, one of which is the BB.

I'm not averse to just folding in that example, most likely fold > shove > standard raise > limp. Identifying the little nuances that make 'similar' hands different from each other is a great way to build your confidence and ensure that more often than not you're making the 'right' decision.

DM, Thanks for the post. You have a lot of good insight. I butchered this hand by not pushing, or folding. Just made a standard raise, and got more action then I wanted. I think I should have pushed here, though, since 1) only 1st place got paid in this tourney and I need to accumulate chips, but also the player immediately to my left was calling raises with marginal hands. I do agree with your fold > shove > standard raise > limp. How did you come up with this? I would like to try and start putting this into my thought process.

 

[blankoblanco]

I'm not averse to just folding in that example, most likely fold > shove > standard raise > limp. Identifying the little nuances that make 'similar' hands different from each other is a great way to build your confidence and ensure that more often than not you're making the 'right' decision.

We have an M of 6 with AJ and five players to act behind us (table's 8 handed, not 9 handed, might make a small difference).. you really think folding is better than shoving? Not running numbers but 95% sure shoving AJ here has a better overall expectation. Folding just seems super weaktight to me

 

[ChuckTs]

Shove all three. Really, you guys are all approaching weak-tight. Limping TT??? *sigh*

AJ is probably the most marginal, maybe AQ if the first limper is trappy, but these are all clear pushes in my mind unless there's some other info I missed that might change my mind.

Any time you have less than 10BBs, you don't have enough to be playing 'standard' poker. Just shove PF with any decent hand, or with any decent spot, and hope that either a weaker hand will call you, or that you push out a stronger one.