UTG 99 Raises 7.5bb, SB shoves all in for 25bb

[Starhockey36]

Hello everyone.

I was playing in a tournament the other day and this hand has been stuck in my head. I’d like to hear what you’d do.

Here’s the scenario:
UTG has about 22bb, the 2nd deepest stack.
UTG raises 7.5bb with pockets 9s

Table folds around to SB.

SB has about 25bb, the deepest stack.
SB jams all in

Neither player has been playing that passively or aggressively. What would you do as UTG?

 

[fundiver199]

When stacks are this short, you want to open somewhere between a mini-raise and 2,5BB and certainly not 7,5BB. If UTG had opened to 2,5BB and got jammed on by the one player, who had him covered, this would be a fine spot to fold. But having put in so many chips already, he had (accidentally) committed himself to the pot, so he should call it off, even its a shitty spot.

 

[jadaminato]

Hello everyone.

I was playing in a tournament the other day and this hand has been stuck in my head. I’d like to hear what you’d do.

Here’s the scenario:
UTG has about 22bb, the 2nd deepest stack.
UTG raises 7.5bb with pockets 9s

Table folds around to SB.

SB has about 25bb, the deepest stack.
SB jams all in

Neither player has been playing that passively or aggressively. What would you do as UTG?

I am a beginner in poker, but I give you my opinion. If the small blind made a re-raise of that size and is not a very aggressive player I would assume that he has a strong hand. But if I already put a third of my stack in the game it's because I was willing in advance to go all-in, so I would pay

 

[Starhockey36]

When stacks are this short, you want to open somewhere between a mini-raise and 2,5BB and certainly not 7,5BB. If UTG had opened to 2,5BB and got jammed on by the one player, who had him covered, this would be a fine spot to fold. But having put in so many chips already, he had (accidentally) committed himself to the pot, so he should call it off, even its a shitty spot.

I understand. In the hand, I was actually the SB who shoved. She gave a tell that she didn’t have a monster hand, so I assumed she had jacks or lower.

I was looking down at AQs and jammed thinking I had enough fold equity to take down the pot (even with the large bet).

Turns out, I was wrong. She called and the 9s held.

 

[Luvepoker]

Odd spot. Not sure what the UTG player was thinking. A lot of the time I see this and the call its with something like Queens, Jacks or Tens. I think your shove would get a fold if they were a bad player or someone who mistakenly bet that much with say a middling pair but I think most times you are getting called. To bad the flip went the wrong way for you there.

 

[fundiver199]

I dont think, you made a massive mistake, but especially given the ICM-implications of jamming and losing the majority of your stack as the chip leader, I would probably lean towards a fold here.

I am an online player, and I have sometimes called huge open shoves for way to many blinds with AK only to be shown a hand like 66 and have it hold up. I have also been shown AK, but I have never been shown anything, AQs was ahead of, except from maniacs who did it repeatedly.

As for why people do this, I assume, its some kind of fear play. Medium pocket pairs are pretty difficult to play postflop out of position, when they flop an underpair, and AK is also not to easy, when it miss the flop. So the range, I would put her on, is something like 66-TT + AK, and of course AQs is not doing great against that range.

 

[axel142]

Call, he are committed, he put 1/3 of his stack, and the sb can have a lot of worse hands. fold committed with the pot and vs the sb (20 blind push) fold it's a mistake.

 

[Cesum Pec]

most of the answers were from the UTG perspective, that UTG would have to call because he had already committed 1/3 of his smallish stack. I agree with that.

Your mistake was not putting yourself into the UTG's mind. With deeper stacks, UTG would have folded that. Unless you had a read that UTG was an easy folder, you made a mistake. I wouldn't think it was a huge mistake, but since you were the deepest stack, but only by a small margin to UTG, I would not have risked my tournament life on a coin flip. You made your decision by looking only at your cards, not the situation.

If you had 10BBs or less, you would be crazy not to shove. I'll let more experienced players than myself weigh on in where they would draw the line at fold, call, shove. The fact that everyone was short stacked messes with my figuring.

Was this a turbo? That might do more to justify your shove?

 

[gustav197poker]

If I am in utg and I opened so strong (7,5bb) after a deep tribet I would fold.
My opening to 7.5 big blinds shows a lot of strength in my hand.
So if someone behind me resumes my bet, I can not place it in a hand weaker than mine.
In fact, now the range of the small blind is too narrow and can include aces, kings or hand queens, perfectly.
I would have retired without hesitation, if I do not have information of sb.
Greetings.

 

[Starhockey36]

Thanks for the replies everyone. There appeared to be no *solid* consensus one way or the other (although most leaned towards my mistake).

For those curious, I worked out the math in excel. For the move to be considered profitable, the UTG would have to fold more than 14.24% of the time when sitting on pocket 9s.

Quite frankly, I still like the move. Maybe I’m wrong; but I believe more than 14% of players will fold their 9s when SB jams all in.

 

[Veritas]

I understand. In the hand, I was actually the SB who shoved. She gave a tell that she didn’t have a monster hand, so I assumed she had jacks or lower.

I was looking down at AQs and jammed thinking I had enough fold equity to take down the pot (even with the large bet).

Turns out, I was wrong. She called and the 9s held.

hey starhockey,
was it live or what was her tell? because raising a third of the stack UTG is usally not a sign for weakness. unless it was a typo, it Looks like she wants to Play for all her Chips!
shoving 22bb with AQ into her Opening is too LAG.
Calling is no Option either because your SPR would be 1 so you are both kinda committed post flop.
My Suggestion would be to fold pre because the other Options are worse for Action and stack sizes given.

also you have no fold equity. 7,5 + 1 + 0,5 + 21,5 +14,5 = 45; she only Needs 32% equity. Against a range of AQ+ TT+ she has 37% equity. so with her raise she gets the odds to call unless she puts you on QQ+ only.

Hello everyone.

I was playing in a tournament the other day and this hand has been stuck in my head. I’d like to hear what you’d do.

Here’s the scenario:
UTG has about 22bb, the 2nd deepest stack.
UTG raises 7.5bb with pockets 9s

Table folds around to SB.

SB has about 25bb, the deepest stack.
SB jams all in

Neither player has been playing that passively or aggressively. What would you do as UTG?

Looking at the Hand from UTG perspective I can't fold after raising a third of my stack. if SB is doing this with some Ax then i get the Right odds to call. but after all the 7.5bb raise with 99 makes no sense at all. I would rather jam 22bb then open 7.5 with such a Hand

 

[Darth_Moola]

I think this depends a lot on how many broadway combos and pairs below 88 they have in their range. if they are on <10% with no pairs below 88, then it is a fold.

 

[Poker Orifice]

What are the payouts?
What are 'all' the stack sizes remaining?

You're missing key info. here.

 

[Rahatis]

Do you make the same raise with aces or just with medium pairs?

 

[Vlad535_100]

So against the hands of 1-2 category, 50% to win. Against ready big hands chances are not so high. In the tournament 4-max any ready hand would be good to play, as well as such as 99.

 

[Boston10111]

When stacks are this short, you want to open somewhere between a mini-raise and 2,5BB and certainly not 7,5BB. If UTG had opened to 2,5BB and got jammed on by the one player, who had him covered, this would be a fine spot to fold. But having put in so many chips already, he had (accidentally) committed himself to the pot, so he should call it off, even its a shitty spot.

I agree with what Fundiver is saying on putting too much in the pot and since the stacks aren’t big you definitely don’t want to lose a third of your stack by folding preflop.

However, “accidentally committing” I think is the wrong phrase to use.

I’ve heard “you’re committed to the pot” too many times. But truth is you are never committed if you still have chips.

While I probably would’ve called( I need to be there to honestly know the situation), if that shove tells you that you are probably beat then it’s OK to fold and I have in the past.

You will still have chips after to play another hand that you think you will win. But don’t commit chips if you think you are beat and should fold. You can build your stack up again with the right cards and gameplay.

Sucks you put soo much chips in but you learn to better your play for next time

 

[Bozovicdj]

I understand. In the hand, I was actually the SB who shoved. She gave a tell that she didn’t have a monster hand, so I assumed she had jacks or lower.

I was looking down at AQs and jammed thinking I had enough fold equity to take down the pot (even with the large bet).

Turns out, I was wrong. She called and the 9s held.

What hand does your Villain need to have, to fold to your aggression, after betting 30% of their stack preflop?

I can not think of any hand that does that, or any player that does that. If you shoved to make Villain fold, you will never ever achieve that.
If you shoved wanting to get called, then you probably knew it would be a flip. This time it didn't go your way, next time it will...

What are the payouts?What are 'all' the stack sizes remaining?


You're missing key info. here.

This is also important. Mainly how close you are to the bubble or a pay jump.
I have seen a lot of MTTs where blinds catch up fast with everyone, and chip leaders end up with 25-35bbs stacks. In that case, AQ would be a fold IMO, as risking busting out is not worth it knowing you will be flipping.

 

[Misaki]

by opening 7.5bb (you shouldn't do this at all) you can't fold it to allin