Unlucky or rubbish play ?

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eaglezoners

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Well, I think it was a useful discussion. I still think as others had suggested earlier, there are more than one way to play this hand. But I learned alot from the responses of c9h13no3 & dsvw56, and especially the observation "If you're not utilizing books and software to help you make your decisions, you're way behind the curve." I must admit I am not particularly familiar with the better decisional/educational software out there generally meaning not just on SnGs. If someone wants to elaborate on this, I would appreciate it.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Well, I think it was a useful discussion. I still think as others had suggested earlier, there are more than one way to play this hand. But I learned alot from the responses of c9h13no3 & dsvw56, and especially the observation "If you're not utilizing books and software to help you make your decisions, you're way behind the curve." I must admit I am not particularly familiar with the better decisional/educational software out there generally meaning not just on SnGs. If someone wants to elaborate on this, I would appreciate it.
Google is your friend. And since I can't post links here, I suggest you go to google and type in the following terms:

"ICM SnG" and then click on the first link
"M zone harrington" and then click on the first link

Those two sites have pretty good explanations of what we're trying to say. Sorry if I'm not explaining all my reasoning in detail, but I'm lazy, and the merits of this type of play has been hashed out many times before.
 
daxter70

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Calling off 2/3's of your stack 66's to me is pretty horrible with out some serious reads. Your are crushed or flipping on an opponents likely shoving range. That is why the conversation on this hand has focused on shoving or folding.

No one is saying that a shove has to be done in this spot but if the hand is going to be played then shoving is the best option. Being so short stacked you are going to end up being pot commited most likely anyway. By shoving you giving yourself the best opportunity you can to win this hand without a fight.

You are short stacked, M<10, the fact that you are desperate isn't a :cool: secret. That doesn't mean that your stack isn't still big enough to really damage another persons stack if you do draw out with ATC.

Edit: Don't forget this is a $1.00 sit and go, ellaborate/complicated play is wasted if the person on the other side of the table doesn't understand what you are doing.

any pair any where...i like the push..not the call:cool:

ive had 22 callin 3 allins the past couple of days like it was nothing..guy beat my AA with it once and Quaded my Kings full the next time..not the same guy..lol

like i said..ANY PAIR ANYWHERE...:cool:
 
DeJaMo

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HTML:
Originally posted by eaglezoners
At this stage in the proceedings, I don't know if i would do much more than call 
with Q- 10 off, as at short-handed tables, 
draws are not profitable due to the paucity of callers.
Are you seriously suggesting open limping there ?

HTML:
Originally posted by eaglezoners
Did you think when you pushed, your hand was going to make a straight. 
If so, that is a bizarre assumption to make.
It's a bizzare assumption to assume that I was thinking of a straight here, a Q or 10 on the flop would have been what I was looking for. :)

HTML:
Originally posted by eaglezoners
I don't think that he appreciated the risk of his play.
Off course it's a risk, but poker is about situations, you just can't sit and wait for top 10% hands.
 
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harriskem

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I probably push there to. You have 10 BB. You might not see a better hand and if you do how much would you have left? If blinds pass you again without you seeing a better hand your down to less than 8 BB and then your oppenents are more priced into it
 
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signalman

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ICM Nash Calculator Results

ICM Nash Calculator Results


Level: 100.0/200.0/0.0
Structure: 0.5/0.3/0.2
Players: 4
Runtime: 168ms [300 Iterations]

PlayerStackPush%EQPreEQPostEQDiffCO5205.053.5%0.3250.3280.00308BU2045.019.5%0.1810.18710.00607SB3310.0100.0%0.25620.2548-0.00137BB2940.00.23780.23-0.00779

Explanation:
  • Stack: Players stack before posting blinds.
  • Push%: Percentage of hands a player open-pushes.
  • EQPre: ICM equity before blinds.
  • EQPost: ICM equity after hand.
  • EQDiff: ICM equity change during hand.
PUCAOCRangeCO53.5%, 22+ Kx+ Q2s+ Q8o+ J4s+ J8o+ T6s+ T8o+ 95s+ 98o 85s+ 87o 75s+ 64s+ 54s BU4.2%, 99+ AQs+ AKo SB2.3%, TT+ BB2.1%, JJ+ AKs SB2.3%, TT+ BB0.5%, AA BB3.5%, TT+ AKs AKo BU19.5%, 22+ A7s+ A5s-A3s ATo+ K8s+ KJo+ Q8s+ QJo J8s+ T9s 98s SB5.9%, 88+ AJs+ AQo+ BB1.8%, JJ+ BB6.8%, 88+ AJs+ AJo+ SB100.0%, Any twoBB9.8%, 66+ A9s+ ATo+ KJs+

Explanation:
  • PU: Pushing Player. Applies when no other player entered the pot yet.
  • CA: Calling Player. Player pushes after another player (PU) is already in the pot.
  • OC: OverCalling Player. Player pushes after two other players (PU, CA) are already in the pot.
Hold'em Simulation
2,097,572,400 trials (Exhaustive)
HandPot equityWinsTies
QsTd 57.29%
** 42.71%

1. ICM indicates FTA push is positive EV
2. QT vs random hand match-up in the blinds is also +EV

The push-fold decision is correct to push in this situation unless you have ESP and know you will be called by one of the blinds with a weak pair (and know you will not improve).
 
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intlplaya

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Let's cut to the chase

Let's examine this from various angles:

1. first of all it is a $1 game, the person holding 66 is going to make that call 90% of the time-in a $1 game, he is not a pro that is why he is at the $1 table, so analysis only goes so far here. If the all in has a hand he is not going all in, he is raising to extract as many chips as possible, so the all in must be on AK, AQ, A-something
2. When someone raises all-in u gotta think he is trying to buy the pot, so yeah I would call him too with pocket 6's
3. The real question is why is he going all in w/only Q-10 o/s? if your going to shove you should have waited for a better hand he still had 10 bb
4. With Q-10 i can see a min rais, then see the flop to determine how you proceed on the turn. W/ Q-10 I want to see the flop first-then try bluff based on over cards on the board.
5. The all in was a wish bet, I wish I hit the flop big, either blind player could have had AA, KK or QQ-you never know what the BB and SB are holding.
6. If your going to put your tourney life on the line choose better cards to do it with.
 
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signalman

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intlplaya,

Let's back up. OP_Hero is FTA on BTN, so he has no way to know what hands the blinds are holding. He acts on the value of his on hand value versus what he can deduce as a range for the blinds. The blinds have random hands.

Second, the OP was not examining the situation from the [6,6]-Villan's view point. That's not the point of this discussion. OP-hero wants to discuss his push-fold decision.

Third, OP-hero's stack is not deep enough to raise/fold. He is on a critical push/fold decision point. His only consideration should be whether he has a better than average hand and does he have any perceived 'fold-equity.' Generally speaking his stack to stack size would indicate that most players would fold with lesser hands, rather than jepordize their tournament life.

It's unfortunate that OP-hero ran into a player that picked up a hand he was willing to call an all-in with. It doesn't make the OP-hero's decision incorrect, though.

Your point 5 & 6 are a bit nearsighted because they are playing 4 handed poker and the OP-hero doesn't have the luxory of waiting for the perfect situation.
 
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dimebag13697

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I think you should have waited a couple more hands, I would rather have A-5 pushing all in short-stacked, rather than Q-10. Since you're short-stacked, people feel obligated to call you down with hands they wouldn't normally play. Your shove was justified because you had a little chip stack, but I would have folded the hand, and waited for a bigger one.
 
dsvw56

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Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg
 
DeJaMo

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Yeah dimebag13697, I too would have preferred an A in my hand, but the problem is that the blinds were about to go up to 200/400, we're four handed so the blinds come round rapidly. Had I mucked that hand, the blinds go up and I'm in M3 situation where any played hand is an all-in. I'm not stupid enough to think that 10, Q off is a good hand, just smart enough to realize it may be the best hand I'll get in the next three orbits.
 
DeJaMo

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Sorry ,I just saw this in a previous post and had to reply,

originally posted by intlplaya

"4. With Q-10 i can see a min rais, then see the flop to determine how you proceed on the turn. W/ Q-10 I want to see the flop first-then try bluff based on over cards on the board."

a min raise, are you fooking serious, for a start I rarely unless some exceptional reason min raise, it is 99% of the time a horrible play!

On the bubble in a micro SnG, a min raise there is just asked to raped, please let me see a flop, this is nearly as bad as the previous poster who suggested limping in here ?!

Read any book, talk to any good player, read online strategy guides etc and the one thing I hope you'll learn is, if you're first to enter a pot, bet three to six times the BB, if you see someone constantly open limping, you can be almost sure they have never read anything on poker in their life.

Okay that's my open limpimg rant done :)
 
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orangepeeleo

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IMO, a lot of posters on here have talked about how an all-in here is so obviously not wanting a call and he must have air or else he'd min raise etc to build a pot, correct me if i'm wrong but with a low M you want to be pushing with hands like this, the fact that it says you have no hand is absolutely perfect for when you do.

Ex, you push maybe 4 out of 7 hands and get no callers, just steal blinds and antes, the next hand you look down at AA,KK etc utg and push again, folds round to the big blind who thinks, he's doing this too much, i think i'm way ahead of his range here and calls, you got action because you were pushing so much before, and when you have a low M this is the perfect situation for you, pushing with marginal holdings gets you the disrespect for your raises that gets calls when you have a monster.

Also, the people who are saying that he could have raised to maybe 600 here and still been around if he hadnt hit are crazy, it says to me that a LOT of people haven't bothered to read HoH Vol 2, which isnt a good move if you regularly play SnG's or MTT's.

This is an easy push, the call with 66 is the bad thing about this hand but obv thats in hindsight, push push push with the Q10, you'll regret not pushing when you get blinded out and end up goin out with 73o.
 
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