Unlucky or rubbish play ?

DeJaMo

DeJaMo

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Any thoughts on this hand guys, was I unlucky or was it a rubbish move ?

pokerstars Game #18082592926: Tournament #91773336, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/06/12 - 04:08:07 (ET)
Table '91773336 1' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 4: DeJaMo42 (2045 in chips)
Seat 5: mg0179 (3310 in chips)
Seat 6: gatorgal6 (2940 in chips)
Seat 9: clare_chris (5205 in chips)
mg0179: posts small blind 100
gatorgal6: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to DeJaMo42 [Td Qs]
clare_chris: folds
DeJaMo42: raises 1845 to 2045 and is all-in
mg0179: calls 1945
gatorgal6: folds
*** FLOP *** [5s 4s Kh]
*** TURN *** [5s 4s Kh] [Ac]
*** RIVER *** [5s 4s Kh Ac] [8h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
mg0179: shows [6h 6s] (a pair of Sixes)
DeJaMo42: shows [Td Qs] (high card Ace)
mg0179 collected 4290 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4290 | Rake 0
Board [5s 4s Kh Ac 8h]
Seat 4: DeJaMo42 (button) showed [Td Qs] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 5: mg0179 (small blind) showed [6h 6s] and won (4290) with a pair of Sixes
Seat 6: gatorgal6 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: clare_chris folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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Seems way standard to me. But thats why I left Sng's for cash :D
 
C

CfPoker

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Why are you pushing this? Ok, your stack isn't great, but you can probably see a few more hands before you need to make this move.

But yes, you were unlucky he woke up with a real hand.
 
blankoblanco

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push is fine. 10 bbs, only 2 players behind you, and they're the right size stacks to attack because even though you're the shorty you can seriously damage them
 
robwhufc

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I think most people are all in or folding here, but personally I still think you can raise 600 to pick up the blinds just as effectively in my experience, and re-evaluate if you see a flop or a re-raise.

But yep, generally you want to be the most active player stealing the blinds when you get 4 handed. If you flipped the HH around and was playing the 66 instead, I'd imagine a lot of people would be suggesting you fold.

P.S I still get annoyed when I see $1+$0.20 at the top of a Hand History :(. 20% rake is going to be very difficult to beat.
 
SPANKYNERD

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I dont think it was the best move. Q 10 is the average winning hand. Personally I wouldn't have raised that much pre-flop with such a dependant hand
 
ryaned

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You got your money in with 2 over cards almost connected...I think your play was fine...just a bad outcome
 
Steveg1976

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Blind are more than 10% of your stack, shove was fine as it gave you the best possible chance of taking the blinds with out a fight. You aren't really looking for a call in this position but have reasonalbel outs if you are called.
 
juz2swt

juz2swt

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I dont think that was a good move should have waited for a better opportunity small pocket pair had you covered in chips and was figuring you were making a move..
 
Steveg1976

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I dont think that was a good move should have waited for a better opportunity small pocket pair had you covered in chips and was figuring you were making a move..


So with Pocket 6's you would make the call of the all-in bet?
 
DeJaMo

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Thanks for the responses guys, I still consider myself a beginner, and it's always good to hear how others would view the situation.
 
dsvw56

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yeah, this is a shove. About the bottom end of your shoving range from the BTN with 10BB, but still a shove. You should be shoving like :

22+,A2+,KTo+,K8s+, and QTs+

Obviously this range should fluctuate slightly depending on how tight/loose the blinds are, but this is a good starting point.
 
E

eaglezoners

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No sugar coating 10 - Q offsuit is no hand to go all in with; if you had been playing extremely tight and were bluffing that might be another matter. At this stage in the proceedings, I don't know if i would do much more than call with Q- 10 off, as at short-handed tables, draws are not profitable due to the paucity of callers.

In my opinion, you seem to be evaluating your action retrospectively not prospectively as you should. Just because he/she called with sixes and on retrospect your Queen and Ten were overcards, has no bearing on whether you had any business pushing all- in with them in the first place. Your caller had a bigger chip stack and actually was ahead of you before the flop. Did you think when you pushed, your hand was going to make a straight. If so, that is a bizarre assumption to make. I think it was a bad play. Sorry.
 
blankoblanco

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anyone who thinks this play is "bad" needs to read harrington on hold 'em, specifically volume 2. this is very basic stuff
 
C

CfPoker

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anyone who thinks this play is "bad" needs to read harrington on hold 'em, specifically volume 2. this is very basic stuff

I don't think Harrington suggets pushing with ATC (which is essentially what we're doing here, we're unlikely to be called by anything that we beat) with an M of 6.

This is by no means a bad play, I'd just say it was borderline on whether to push or not. I'd lean towards not doing in this instance.
 
blankoblanco

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i don't mind believing it's borderline. i'd be inclined to agree. i wouldn't always push this either because it's marginal enough that certain factors could lean me one way or the other. i'm mostly just responding to those who are acting as though this play is awful, which is just wrong
 
E

eaglezoners

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Well, i suppose considering that there were only 4 at the table, Q-10 off wasn't a bad hand to try to raise with and steal the blinds, though most advocate at least QJ. But we aren't evaluating what he did versus what he should have done. Going all in with Q-10 off, yeah it most likely would end up stealing the blinds, but it was also his surest ticket out of the poker game, and he bought it. Anytime you go all-in, it may be the last hand you play. I don't think that he appreciated the risk of his play.
 
c9h13no3

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I don't think that he appreciated the risk of his play.
I don't think you appreciate the reward. He adds 15% to his stack when this works. And when it doesn't work, as in this case, we were a 48:52 underdog. That's not a huge risk! And if we win this coinflip, we can easily cruise into the money because the caller will be on life support.

On the bubble in these sit & go's, you just have to be fearless unless you have reads that tell you otherwise.
 
E

eaglezoners

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Well not to belabor the point, but you make the mistake of also looking at the hand in hindsight; not from what he knew at the time he made his decision. The two other players could have had held JJs or better. He didnt know at that time. So you can't say it was a coin flip, because he had know idea what the other two players, at that time, held in their hands. If they had much better hands than the 66, then his odds would have been much worse than a coin flip. Calling it a coin flip is a gross error and looking at the hand retrospectively adds NOTHING to the analysis. I think it is also unnecessarily presumptuous of you and somewhat demeaning for you to say that I do not appreciate what he could have gained. This is what the whole debate has been about. He also could have gained the 15% by raising and not going all in. If he got a call to a strong raise or a re-raise, he at least he could have remained in the game, and but he eliminated his many options by pushing all-in. Consequently, where he made his decison to make the 15 % in this fashion, he also assisted himself in making an unnecessarily fast exit from the game. :) :p :eek:
 
Last edited:
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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The two other players could have had held JJs or better.
Okay, so you insist on arguing, so lets argue. Sure, he could have been dominated. Lets pick out all the hands that have him dominated:

AT, KT, KQ, AQ, TT+. And we'll throw in AK as well since we're a 1.7:1 dog against AK.

This makes up 8% of the total hands his opponents could have. Add in the fact that his opponent may not call with KT or KQ, and you're down to the top 6% of hands in the deck.

So yeah, there is a risk that when we're called, we're not coin-flipping. But that risk is small. And what's worse, if you sit around and wait for a hand that you can safely go all in with, you will be blinded away.

And if you persist on arguing further, all I can do is point you to Harrington on Hold'em, or any of the other poker literature on tournament play.

PokerStars - I still can't believe we're debating this. Someone plug this in SnG wizard and just end this silly debate.

PPS - Making "P-S" show up as poker stars is really starting to piss me off.
 
DeJaMo

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Busy playing right now, but I'll add my two cents worth to the discussion tomorrrow.
 
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GivPeace

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I find extreamly lazy just to use an all-in at this point, very uncreative and is to standard of a play to work. Someone made a post earlier similar to my point and a response was "would you have called with pocket 6's" my textbook answer is yes ( of course I would like live information ) There are not to many people who would just go all-in AA, KK,QQ the all-in just looks like the player is saying "HEY I NEED CHIPS DON'T CALL MY ALL_IN GUYS I NEED TO STEAL ". Just another point to go with this is I keep seeing these post saying that this program or book gives you the definitive awsnser on what you should do. I believe this is a big mistake poker is situational game. Every hand can be played a multitude of ways its how you fell out those situations that make you a winning poker player.
 
Steveg1976

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Calling off 2/3's of your stack 66's to me is pretty horrible with out some serious reads. Your are crushed or flipping on an opponents likely shoving range. That is why the conversation on this hand has focused on shoving or folding.

No one is saying that a shove has to be done in this spot but if the hand is going to be played then shoving is the best option. Being so short stacked you are going to end up being pot commited most likely anyway. By shoving you giving yourself the best opportunity you can to win this hand without a fight.

You are short stacked, M<10, the fact that you are desperate isn't a secret. That doesn't mean that your stack isn't still big enough to really damage another persons stack if you do draw out with ATC.

Edit: Don't forget this is a $1.00 sit and go, ellaborate/complicated play is wasted if the person on the other side of the table doesn't understand what you are doing.
 
dsvw56

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I find extreamly lazy just to use an all-in at this point, very uncreative and is to standard of a play to work. Someone made a post earlier similar to my point and a response was "would you have called with pocket 6's" my textbook answer is yes ( of course I would like live information ) There are not to many people who would just go all-in AA, KK,QQ the all-in just looks like the player is saying "HEY I NEED CHIPS DON'T CALL MY ALL_IN GUYS I NEED TO STEAL ". Just another point to go with this is I keep seeing these post saying that this program or book gives you the definitive awsnser on what you should do. I believe this is a big mistake poker is situational game. Every hand can be played a multitude of ways its how you fell out those situations that make you a winning poker player.

1. if we play the hand, all the money is going in regardless. We have 10bb, a 3bb raise leaves us with 7 and a flop pot size of 6.5-7.5bb. We're shoving 100% of flops if checked to, and calling pretty much anything we get some sort of piece of. If all the money is going in anyways, why not just shove and maxmize our fold equity? Which brings us to point #2

2. We're not playing this hand due to it's raw hand strength. It has to do with how our hand matches up against their calling range vs. our equity when everyone folds. This is the basis of ICM calculation software and books on ICM, which brings us to point #3

3. If you're not utilizing books and software (such as Collin Moshmans SnG Strategy, HoH, or SnG Wizard) to help you make your decisions, you're way behind the curve.

Oh, and yes there is many ways to play certain hands, just not when you're only 10bb deep. It's push/fold time.
 
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