Turbo, I have to shove this, right???

B

bw07507

Legend
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Jan 8, 2007
Total posts
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pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t150 (7 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
UTG (t1255)
MP1 (t1715)
Hero (t1510)
CO (t4695)
Button (t1230)
SB (t1075)
BB (t3520)
Preflop: Hero is MP2 with J
spade.gif
, A
heart.gif
.
1 fold, MP1 calls t150, Hero raises to t1510, 4 folds, MP1 calls t1360.
Flop: (t3245) 2
spade.gif
, 5
club.gif
, Q
heart.gif
(2 players)
Turn: (t3245) 7
diamond.gif
(2 players)
River: (t3245) Q
club.gif
(2 players)
Final Pot: t3245

Im at about 10xBB. Villain is 35/4/40 - He has shown that he will fold to raises b4. I have been playing very TAG. This is an easy shove right???

I have hit sort of a bad run of sorts lately and have been questioning some of my decisons. Just looking for some feedback.
 
pedroman7

pedroman7

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I think it was a good play. 10X bb in a turbo one limper easy shove.
 
M

maltz

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You were in early position, though. It is a little too risky IMO. I would push with a middle~big pocket pair, but not AJ.
 
dj11

dj11

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I don't like it.

At this point in the contest, the blinds are encroaching on everyone except the 2 chip leaders. A shove here looks a bit too desperate. At these blinds a 3x bb raise is large, very large, and probably looks scarier than a shove. Big stacks don't need to get involved here unless they have monsters.

There is a psychological difference between a shove, and a good raise. I often find myself calling a shove with much less that calling a good raise.

The shove looks like an A-x steal attempt. MP1 probably is sitting on mid pair or better and sees your A-x as beatable.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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Villain is probably on a small pair and willing to call shoves against A-mid type hands. However, the dead money in the pot justifies the shove IMO.
 
V

viking999

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There is a psychological difference between a shove, and a good raise. I often find myself calling a shove with much less that calling a good raise.

The shove looks like an A-x steal attempt. MP1 probably is sitting on mid pair or better and sees your A-x as beatable.

That's exactly why I do want to shove with AJ. They're going to call weak versus a shove, much weaker than AJ. I expect AT, A9, KQ, and maybe worse to call there a good part of the time. I am also ok with racing versus 22-TT, because there's enough in the pot already to justify taking the bad end of a race. And on top of that, I'd expect to take down the dead money >50% of the time.
 
rob5775

rob5775

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The dead money (limp + blinds) equals roughly 25% of our stack. A shove here will likely take this down vs a loose passive limper.

I don't really mind a call from villain either. Most frequently we are in a coin flip or ahead 60/40. If villain has a weaker A we are even further ahead. And if we run into AA (hey, villain is tricky!) it will probably be less than 15% of the time. Shoving is a +ev play here, especially in a turbo.
 
PokerProBetZip

PokerProBetZip

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I don't like it.

At this point in the contest, the blinds are encroaching on everyone except the 2 chip leaders. A shove here looks a bit too desperate. At these blinds a 3x bb raise is large, very large, and probably looks scarier than a shove. Big stacks don't need to get involved here unless they have monsters.

There is a psychological difference between a shove, and a good raise. I often find myself calling a shove with much less that calling a good raise.

The shove looks like an A-x steal attempt. MP1 probably is sitting on mid pair or better and sees your A-x as beatable.


Couldn't put it better myself :) Well said
 
smerald

smerald

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I might have just raised in that position or folded, I play a little bit tight tho.
Otherwise, it was a pretty good play.
 
B

bw07507

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A raise is stupid here in my opinion. With the limper behind me, I would have to raise it to atleast 600 which would pot commit me no matter what. If I shove, I have a greater chance of taking it down, and I get to see all 5 cards if I get called. Im kind of hoping ChuckTs will pop on here and post his thoughts.
 
J

joeeagles

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Sorry BW, I'm not Chuck but I'll still give you my thoughts :)

I think it's an ok(ish) move, I can't say I love it but I don't hate it either. As dj said, there are times when shoves get called easier than standard raises.

If this were in later position I'd go for it almost every time, especially in turbos. Here I'm a little more cautious. Too many players left to act + a limper in EP. I see many times players limping big hands in EP in turbos, trying to catch someone shoving.

Anyway, I don't think there is anything drastically terrible with this play. Some may like it some not, but even if you don't love it that doesn't make it wrong, because truth is it will take the dead money a certain % of times, and it'll also win some showdowns when called. Whatever happened in this case in reality is irrelevant in determining if the move was good or not.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I'm no Chuck either but I don't mind it either, especially if you think MP1 is capable of folding. At this stage some people start to panic and defend their limps with anything. From his position, I don't know what I limp/call with as he doesn't have you outchipped by much; medium-low pocket pairs perhaps, but them I make the mistake of thinking that my opponents are reasonable players. Mind you, it is a turbo too so there is pressure to chip up or get blinded away.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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This is a very standard push for me, especially with a limper as weak as that. It's even a push without the limper. Two short stacks will look me up with worse aces and occasionally a KQ type hand, and the big stacks will likely do the same.

Usually a limper in MP with a stack like that is either on a weak limp (QJs or weak pair/etc), or is trapping with a big pair or AK. Given villain's stats I'm guessing there's a good chunk of worse hands that he's limping with and I'm happy to push here.

Again, I'm pushing this all the time with the information you're giving.

@dj: I completely agree that a shove actually looks weaker than a standard raise a lot of the time, but that's fine here. We actually have a good enough hand that we don't mind a call from villain's weak limping range.

If you think we're getting called by weaker med. pairs (77-99 etc, which I agree with), then we'll probably get looked up by worse aces too, which we dominate. Not to mention KQ-type hands. I've even gotten called with JTs type hands here vs loose-passive players who are sick of seeing their limps get pushed around.
 
Hard2Handle

Hard2Handle

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If I were the limper i would have your AJ beat...just saying don't need to put that many chips in the pot pre...you have more time. Plus a small raise let's you know where you stand, doing this also allows him to fold his A4 or KJ when flop shows nothing.
 
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