Too Tight Post Flop? (Early MTT)

D

Dragnet

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pokerstars Game #11523688075: Tournament #57898201, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level I (10/20) - 2007/08/16 - 18:03:08 (ET)
Table '57898201 221' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: dertiger (1530 in chips)
Seat 2: bulletgolf (1560 in chips)
Seat 3: wcsplayer (1400 in chips)
Seat 4: ardenfast (1470 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 5: uuhaa (1440 in chips)
Seat 6: Patstars (1480 in chips)
Seat 7: Fishface90 (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: serpimolot (1640 in chips)
Seat 9: Hossibudy (1530 in chips)
Patstars: posts small blind 10
Fishface90: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Fishface90 [9s 9d]
serpimolot: folds
Hossibudy: folds
dertiger: calls 20
bulletgolf: calls 20
wcsplayer: folds
ardenfast: folds
uuhaa: calls 20
Patstars: calls 10
Fishface90: raises 60 to 80
ardenfast has returned
dertiger: calls 60
bulletgolf: calls 60
uuhaa: calls 60
Patstars: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [As Kh 2c]
Patstars: checks
Fishface90: checks
dertiger: bets 20
bulletgolf: calls 20
uuhaa: calls 20
Patstars: folds
Fishface90: calls 20
*** TURN *** [As Kh 2c] K♠
Fishface90: checks
dertiger: bets 60
bulletgolf: calls 60
uuhaa: folds
Fishface90: calls 60
*** RIVER *** [As Kh 2c Ks] K♦
Fishface90: checks
dertiger: bets 200
bulletgolf: folds
Fishface90: folds
dertiger collected 660 from pot

--------------------------

Any thoughts would be appreciated
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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With 860 in the pot, I'd probably just flat call this - the whole thing is suspicious, but the pre-flop limp and the min-raise on the flop make it hard to put him on an ace or king. The bet of just 60 into a 500-odd pot on the turn makes it hard to put him on trip kings or aces up as well. Maybe he knows that, he's sensing weakness all around and he's trying to milk you all... it's entirely possible.

What else could he have? TT / JJ maybe, but you'd have to ask yourself why he didn't raise those hands pre-flop.

OK... thinking through all that, he's created a very good impression that you're beat - and you haven't really done much to convince him otherwise. Still, if it turns out you are beat, you'll still have enough chips to play back with. I'd pay it off. Even the information gained by calling could be useful in the future.

A raise or check-raise on the flop to about a third / half of the pot might've given you some more information on what he was holding
 
J

joeeagles

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PF: There are 4 players in this pot when its your turn to act, so you have 2 options which are call or raise. If you decide to raise, the problem with level 1 in most tournies is that players want to see flops and tend to call raises unless they're big enough to discourage them to do so. Your raise to 80 with 4 players in the pot qualifies as a minraise, which most definitely won't get the job done in terms of eliminating players from the pot, which is the reason why you raise to begin with.

As a rule of thumb, you should raise 3BB's + 1BB for every limper. In this case your raise should have been to 140. Being that its level 1 in a $1 tourney, you should even add something to that in order to obtain the effect you want. Raising it to 80 is just a "pot sweetener", cause they will call it virtually every time.

If you feel uncomfortable raising that much with 99 from the BB, then just limp and don't raise, play it 5-way for set value.

FLOP : The flop play is fine, there are 2 overcards (A and K) on the board and you're beat about 99.99% of the time in a 5-way pot, but the bet was only 20 so pot is offering you a ridiculous 23 to 1 which makes this an easy call since those are just about the odds you have to catch a 9 (plus a ton of implied odds on an AK board).

TURN : On the turn the bet is now 60, so you're getting 10 to 1 which is not good, but considering implied odds (which still might not get you there) and mostly size of the pot, even if incorrect I think I'd still make this call and pray to catch a 9.

RIVER : River is a fold cause you're beat there just about every time. The same guy fired 3 times and I can't see him bluffing at this with a hand worse than yours, it looks like a value bet and your fold seems correct to me.
 
D

Dragnet

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Thanks for the comments.

I didn't know where I was after the flop, with AK over cards I was sure someone had hit but when the puny 20 chip bet came I guessed he had a King and no one had an Ace. I just called for the great odds. When 2 more Kings came I was totally confused. In hindsight I was thinking should I have re-raised on the flop representing the Ace?

Joeeagles: Thanks for the advice on my pre-flop raise. My thinking here was to raise for value and not to limit the field. It was early in the tournament so I wanted a bigger pot if I hit my set. Is this a bad approach?
 
J

joeeagles

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my pre-flop raise. My thinking here was to raise for value and not to limit the field. It was early in the tournament so I wanted a bigger pot if I hit my set. Is this a bad approach?


When you play a pocket pair for set value in a multiway pot the best approach is to get in as cheaply as possible, then if you hit the flop you worry about building the pot.

Raising PF to build the pot in case you hit your set is almost always never worth it because the majority of the time (87%) you will miss and wasted chips. Raising is done to limit the field and get it HU.

Don't worry too much about what happened in this hand because even if you raise this to 180/200 its not a sure thing you would get the limpers to fold, its more likely 2/3 of them would have called anyway. That's why its hard to play medium pairs in the 1st level, and I almost always give up and play them for set value especially OOP like you were here in the BB.

In my 1st post I explained the 3BB +1BB for every limper just to try to give you an idea on how to size a raise in multiway pots, but in my opinion a situation like you were in, with 4 limpers, sitting in the BB and tourney being in the 1st level, its best to play it for set value.

Overall in this hand I think you did a really good job in folding the river, you're behind here just about every time and your fold saved you 200 chips.
 
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