Is this too aggressive ?

BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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A hand from yesterday's cardschat $5 on full tilt.

Is this too agressive ?

Stacks:

* BTN with 3560
* SB with 3005
* BB with 3200
* UTG with 1680
* MP with 815
* CO with 1065
hand.pl

Blinds:
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to BTN:J♣ Q♣
* * Sklansky group 3
Preflop:
* * 4 players fold.
* * Hero raises to 300
* * SB raises to 600
* * 1 players fold.
* * Hero calls [300]
* * Total folds this street: 5
* * Potsize: 1300
Flop:
* * 4♣ 10♣ 10♦
* * SB bets [700]
* * Hero raises to 2,960, and is all in


The results have been hidden.

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C

CfPoker

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What are the blinds? Assuming they're 50/100 it does seem like a bit of an uneccesary move. It's just you and the blinds in the hand and you all have big stacks. You might have just wanted to call preflop and keep the pot small. If it was the short stacks in the blinds then it'd be a better raise.

He did raise you preflop and happily led into this... it might be a steal, but it might also be a pocket pair, or if he's being really tricky he might be holding a T. If he has anything and calls you chances are you've just crippled yourself when you didn't need to put yourself into that position.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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Blinds were 50/100.

I nearly never limp from the BTN so I raised, and I don't fold to min-raises, so pref-flop play was very much on auto-run for me.

After the flop, I would put Villain on a range like 88+, AQ+. I'm in a coinflip with 88-99,JJ,AQ+, 2 to 1 underdog against QQ+, and losing to the very unlikely TT.

Obviously I'm behind his range, but I think I have a good fold equity against AQ+ and 88-99, which should make the shove profitable.
 
F

Flappyf1sh

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This is a call for me. Or if you were trying to steal 300 is far to small you need to be betting about 500 if you get reraised then your laying the hand down. As for his range on the flop why push when he can really cripple you. I try and play these hands as cheap as possible until its made. Save you knowledge af ranges and your big stack for the bubble.
 
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jewboy07

jewboy07

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well since villian re-raised PF i would expect them to lead regardless of what came

so if it were me i would just call the bet on the flop to see another street and whether or not they will fire another bullet

also maybe a 9 or K will come off making you open-ended as well

i just think with no pair and just a flush draw a push is a little excessive
 
flint

flint

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Too agressive, maybe. It all depends on what he is willing to call you down with. You need to think it through, maybe he can't call you and you are shoving for image. Overall it does seem a tad excessive to shove when at best its 50-50.
 
D

dougiefresh1234

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nah

too aggresive, i dont think so, you have a possible flush and backdoor str8, keep on with it and dont be discouraged.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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Too agressive, maybe. It all depends on what he is willing to call you down with. You need to think it through, maybe he can't call you and you are shoving for image. Overall it does seem a tad excessive to shove when at best its 50-50.

Isn't it exactly when you're supposed to shove? Calling when you're 50-50 is wrong, but shoving???

I mean, if I'm a big underdog I check fold. If I'm a big favorite I size my bet so that villain calls and gives me more money. Shoving is typically what you do when you're 50-50. That's when you want the extra edge from fold equity, right?
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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Results:

Turns out he had one of the hands that would snap call my shove. And i didn't suck out.


Full Tilt poker game #5648488665: Cardschat $200 Money added (40026337), Table 3 - 50/100 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:26:39 ET - 2008/03/15
Seat 1: BelgoSuisse (3,560)
Seat 2: mbutler007 (3,005)
Seat 3: beardyian (3,200)
Seat 4: emk4976 (1,680)
Seat 7: bryan24 (815)
Seat 8: kittyxxkat (1,065)
Seat 9: jroyfus (7,860), is sitting out
mbutler007 posts the small blind of 50
beardyian posts the big blind of 100
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BelgoSuisse [Jc Qc]
emk4976 folds
bryan24 folds
kittyxxkat folds
jroyfus folds
BelgoSuisse raises to 300
mbutler007 raises to 600
beardyian folds
BelgoSuisse calls 300
*** FLOP *** [4c Tc Td]
mbutler007 bets 700
BelgoSuisse raises to 2,960, and is all in
mbutler007 calls 1,705, and is all in
BelgoSuisse shows [Jc Qc]
mbutler007 shows [Ks Kd]
Uncalled bet of 555 returned to BelgoSuisse
*** TURN *** [4c Tc Td] [3s]
*** RIVER *** [4c Tc Td 3s] [Kc]
beardyian: ouwww
BelgoSuisse shows a flush, King high
mbutler007 shows a full house, Kings full of Tens
mbutler007 wins the pot (6,110) with a full house, Kings full of Tens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 6,110 | Rake 0
Board: [4c Tc Td 3s Kc]
Seat 1: BelgoSuisse (button) showed [Jc Qc] and lost with a flush, King high
Seat 2: mbutler007 (small blind) showed [Ks Kd] and won (6,110) with a full house, Kings full of Tens
Seat 3: beardyian (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 4: emk4976 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 7: bryan24 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 8: kittyxxkat didn't bet (folded)
Seat 9: jroyfus didn't bet (folded)
 
B

bw07507

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Preflop raise is standard, I like it, but after the small blind reraises, especially a min reraise like that, Im folding nearly every single time. A lot of times a small reraise like that is KK/AA trying to get action. Postflop I dont mind the shove, agree that you should either be shoving or folding this flop, it all depends on reads really. If you think that villain is capable of folding 66-99, AQ, AK then I like to shove, as u have a lot of outs, however if you think he will call with pretty much anything, then theres no real reason to risk your tourney life right here.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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Preflop raise is standard, I like it, but after the small blind reraises, especially a min reraise like that, Im folding nearly every single time. A lot of times a small reraise like that is KK/AA trying to get action. Postflop I dont mind the shove, agree that you should either be shoving or folding this flop, it all depends on reads really. If you think that villain is capable of folding 66-99, AQ, AK then I like to shove, as u have a lot of outs, however if you think he will call with pretty much anything, then theres no real reason to risk your tourney life right here.

I'm pretty sure he would fold 66-99, AQ, AK. I'm less sure that those hands were truely within his range. Maybe I should have read his hand as QQ+ only.
 
flint

flint

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Isn't it exactly when you're supposed to shove? Calling when you're 50-50 is wrong, but shoving???

I mean, if I'm a big underdog I check fold. If I'm a big favorite I size my bet so that villain calls and gives me more money. Shoving is typically what you do when you're 50-50. That's when you want the extra edge from fold equity, right?

In tournament play you want to minimize your risk in relation to your reward. This means that putting all your money on a flop that you're at best 50-50 isn't the best thing to do expecially when you still have over 35 big blinds and have no need to shove.

I also don't necessarily like your call pre-flop as he is raising out of position. He might think you're stealing, but then why would he min-raise you unless he isn't holding something he wants to keep you involved with? However, you do get good odds so maybe you need to call with thought that he might have a big hand in mind.

I think on the flop a call would not be bad to see the turn and then fold if the villain pushes too hard (but you might feel too pot commited). I tend to fold on such flops although a small proprtion of the time I tend to raise the action back to him. Remember if you put a min raise back to him it would show more strength as if you were representing the 10.

In your last post you said that he would fold most of his range, but this would only mean that if you're called you would indeed not be 50-50, but behind. It is a bit too risky/aggressive for my taste since even if you folded you would have a nice stack to play with. You need to think how involved you want to get in the tournament hands and what your stack size will be if you make different moves.
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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In your last post you said that he would fold most of his range, but this would only mean that if you're called you would indeed not be 50-50, but behind.

Of course. But it's ok to be behind when he calls provided he folds often enough.

Let's say I fold on the flop. Then I have 2960 chips left.

If I shove and he calls half the time with 2 to 1 odds for him, but folds half the time, then my cEV is

cEV = 0.5 * ( 0.33 * 6715 ) // he calls, I win
+ 0.5 * (0.66 * 555) // he calls, I loose
+ 0.5 * 5010 // he folds
= 3810

so it's very much +cEV, but of course that may not translate into +$EV.

Maybe I'm too used to playing single table SNGs where aggression is really the name of the game, and I do need to keep that in mind when playing bigger tournaments ?
 
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C

CfPoker

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My main concern in the early parts of tournaments is survival. Yeah, you need to build at a stack at some point, but you can usually wait for good hands to do it with. It's more towards the end when the blinds start getting massive and you hit the bubble that you want to start being agressive.

But my main problem in this hand is who you were aggressive against. You and the blinds have big stacks, the other three don't. Target them, they're more likely to fold to your aggressive play.
 
flint

flint

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Maybe I'm too used to playing single table SNGs where aggression is really the name of the game, and I do need to keep that in mind when playing bigger tournaments ?

Just remember that in a SNG if you double up by knocking a opponent out on the first hand you have 1/5 of the chips in play (assuming 10 player tables). However in a hundred player MTT you would only have 1/50 of the chips. This means that the instant double up is more important in a SNG in terms of placing higher up in the money, while in a MTT you still have plenty of opponents you need to beat to even get down to the final table. This is especially important since most MTTs pay only to 10% while SNGs pay 30%.

Since you will see more hands and be able to pick your spots better, you should be able to wait for hands where you have larger edge and your opponent is likely to call with a larger range.
 
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