Time To Get My Feet Wet!!

[aloevera]

Ok...I promised a good friend here I would post a HA thread before the end of the month and ask for input..not the best example but I have questions.

pokerstars Game #10377799788: Tournament #52579597, $1.00+$0.20 Hold'em No Limit
- Level I (10/20) - 2007/06/11 - 02:08:13 (ET)
Table '52579597 2' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: aloevera (1500 in chips)
Seat 2: tarutino (1500 in chips)
Seat 3: lorrraine39 (1500 in chips)
Seat 4: RoboPlayer17 (1500 in chips)
Seat 5: Dutman3504 (1500 in chips)
Seat 6: Rack06 (1500 in chips)
Seat 7: oetgen (1500 in chips)
Seat 8: Delwyn_13* (1500 in chips)
Seat 9: sawtyboy (1500 in chips)
tarutino: posts small blind 10
lorrraine39: posts big blind 20
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aloevera [Qc Ac]
RoboPlayer17: calls 20
Dutman3504: calls 20
Rack06: folds
oetgen: folds
Delwyn_13*: calls 20
sawtyboy: calls 20
aloevera: calls 20
tarutino: folds
lorrraine39: raises 480 to 500
RoboPlayer17: folds
Dutman3504: folds
Delwyn_13*: folds
sawtyboy: folds
aloevera: raises 1000 to 1500 and is all-in
lorrraine39: calls 1000 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [3h 2c 7h]
*** TURN *** [3h 2c 7h] [Kc]
*** RIVER *** [3h 2c 7h Kc] [8h]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
lorrraine39: shows [4h Ah] (a flush, Ace high)
aloevera: shows [Qc Ac] (high card Ace)
lorrraine39 collected 3090 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3090 | Rake 0
Board [3h 2c 7h Kc 8h]
Seat 1: aloevera (button) showed [Qc Ac] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 2: tarutino (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: lorrraine39 (big blind) showed [4h Ah] and won (3090) with a flush, Ace
high
Seat 4: RoboPlayer17 folded before Flop
Seat 5: Dutman3504 folded before Flop
Seat 6: Rack06 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: oetgen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Delwyn_13* folded before Flop
Seat 9: sawtyboy folded before Flop

First of all I know one of the biggest mistakes I made was limping especially the position I was in, you guys have taught me better than that. How much would you have raised? I was thinking maybe 200 or all in? Woulda scared most of the field to fold and left me with one player I figure.

My biggest question is no matter what I did I don't think he woulda folded..my reason being is this is only a 1$ sng. What does he have to lose a buck Were only like 3 hands into the tourney.

So do stakes make a big difference on how you play and how far you are into the tournament make a major difference? I think it does

My thoughts at the time is that everybody limped in and I thought I would see the flop and draw more dollars out of them if I hit. If I don't and someone else after the flop raised like 100 or 200 I woulda folded, therefore only losing 20 chippies.(still in for another round)?

Oh ya, how do you loosen up a tight player when they been playin that way for a couple of years?

I actually had to go and read dorkus post rules in this section...I haven't read rules in almost 2yrs.

sorry for the smilies in HA but it's my nature

Now you can all yell at me. lol

 

[robwhufc]

First of all I know one of the biggest mistakes I made was limping especially the position I was in, you guys have taught me better than that. How much would you have raised? I was thinking maybe 200 or all in? Woulda scared most of the field to fold and left me with one player I figure.

You need to raise, to get rid of the chaff. Certainly not all-in, who's going to call that? (forget about what actually happened) - hands that are either much better, or slightly ahead of you. And if they all fold you've only won 100 chips. Personally i'd put it to 120-150.

My biggest question is no matter what I did I don't think he woulda folded..my reason being is this is only a 1$ sng. What does he have to lose a buck Were only like 3 hands into the tourney.

So do stakes make a big difference on how you play and how far you are into the tournament make a major difference? I think it does

It was terrible play from your opponent, you get bad play at all levels, but not players like this that chuck their money away. But if you can manouvre arond the donks early on and pick up some chips, the $1 games dont take that much winning.

My thoughts at the time is that everybody limped in and I thought I would see the flop and draw more dollars out of them if I hit. If I don't and someone else after the flop raised like 100 or 200 I woulda folded, therefore only losing 20 chippies.(still in for another round)?

It's very important to realise that you don't have to hit a hand to pick up the chips. If you have raised pre-flop and bet again post-flop, if your opponent misses (and doesn't have a draw) or hits bottom pair, then they'll fold. You'll very rarely win a SnG just by winning hands at showdown.

Oh ya, how do you loosen up a tight player when they been playin that way for a couple of years?

I'd ask them "have you been a winning player at poker for the last couple of years?".

 

[gord962]

First of all I know one of the biggest mistakes I made was limping especially the position I was in, you guys have taught me better than that. How much would you have raised? I was thinking maybe 200 or all in? Woulda scared most of the field to fold and left me with one player I figure.

The general rule of thumb is 3- 4 BB + 1 BB for each limper in front of you. That puts you at the $120 that Rob already mentioned.

My biggest question is no matter what I did I don't think he woulda folded..my reason being is this is only a 1$ sng. What does he have to lose a buck Were only like 3 hands into the tourney.

So do stakes make a big difference on how you play and how far you are into the tournament make a major difference? I think it does

Like Rob said, this is a terrible play by your opponent. One thing is that AQs is not a strong enough hand here to take on a huge PF raise like this. It is definitely NOT a PF all in hand with a full stack early in a tournament or SNG. Most of the time you will be dominated here.

My thoughts at the time is that everybody limped in and I thought I would see the flop and draw more dollars out of them if I hit. If I don't and someone else after the flop raised like 100 or 200 I woulda folded, therefore only losing 20 chippies.(still in for another round)?

Another good answer from Rob. I really have nothing to add here.

Oh ya, how do you loosen up a tight player when they been playin that way for a couple of years?

I would suggest watching some of the donkament videos and seeing how pre flop raises and c-bets work to build big stack without having to go to showdown. Playing is great, but you are only seeing your own cards. Seeing all the cards face up will really give you an idea of where to be aggressive and when not to be. It is a really good learning tool IMO. I would also ask Dakota what triggers worked for her. She has made great strides over the last few months in this area.

 

[NineLions]

First of all I know one of the biggest mistakes I made was limping especially the position I was in, you guys have taught me better than that. How much would you have raised? I was thinking maybe 200 or all in? Woulda scared most of the field to fold and left me with one player I figure.

Hey, Aloe's posting the HA section!

In my opinion limping isn't the worst thing this early, especially at this level, just because raising often doesn't accomplish much. Even if you do raise, be prepared to be up against A-rag off suit or Q8s. If you meet resistance, it's a judgement call whether some bizzare preflop hand hit the flop, or they're pushing middle pair.

Even still, it is worthwhile raising, to at least attempt to get rid of some of the crap holdings. Just be prepared to fold when someone pushes.

My biggest question is no matter what I did I don't think he woulda folded..my reason being is this is only a 1$ sng. What does he have to lose a buck Were only like 3 hands into the tourney.

That's the reason for folding anything but high pairs against pushes early on. Wait for the opening donkfest to be done before assuming the players know what they're doing.

 

[beardyian]

Even before i had scrolled down to Robs post i was thinking a minimum of 100 here, esp with so many limpers behind - you want to get rid of as many of those as possible.

And as for the nutter who raises with A-4 well they shouldnt have even been in the pot, but because of all the limping how could they refuse

The general rule of thumb is 3- 4 BB + 1 BB for each limper in front of you.

I remember reading this here a couple of months back and have to agree, if you just pop out the usual 3xBB those who have already entered will only have a small amount to call and so will more than likely think 'its worth a stab at'

Basically the sooner you manage to clear the table of limpers the better your hand is.

 

[tosborn]

Sorry, it was just your feet.

As stated, raise prflop to 120~.

If someone reraises all-in this early you need to make a decision whether or not you want to gamble. Right now you don't have much of a hand. I would estimate, however, that you will be ahead here at least 70% of the time (donks will push with anything early).

So the question is, do you want to risk it? If you win you will have a big early chip lead which if played correctly will make it easy to boss the table.

It is probably more of a personal call to make. The true answer would be to fold, but, like I said you are ahead here more than not. But, this is a drawing hand, and 27o isn't much worse than a coinflip.

 

[aloevera]

You need to raise, to get rid of the chaff. Certainly not all-in, who's going to call that?(So if I went all in do you think it woulda even scared off the BB? (forget about what actually happened) - hands that are either much better, or slightly ahead of you. And if they all fold you've only won 100 chips. Not much, but not bad for these blinds.. Personally i'd put it to 120-150.


It was terrible play from your opponent, (Being that it was a 1$ sng I run into donks like this all the time. don't forget I had 4 club he had 4 hearts...he hit the river. Just as many times I have hit the river myself) you get bad play at all levels, but not players like this that chuck their money away. But if you can manouvre arond the donks early on and pick up some chips, the $1 games dont take that much winning. (I had no hesitation in my call I was quick and on top of it..I did that based on my instinct, I felt stronger than BB and really wanted BB to prove it. I don't know anything about odds, I figure this would be aprox 60-70% for me......I play 5$ Sng's...I woulda played much more differently I'm sure..but in saying that I did not have a read on the BB b/c it was so early ..maybe I shoulda been more informed on who I'm up against with the other 30-40%!

It's very important to realise that you don't have to hit a hand to pick up the chips. If you have raised pre-flop and bet again post-flop, if your opponent misses (and doesn't have a draw) or hits bottom pair, then they'll fold. You'll very rarely win a SnG just by winning hands at showdown.(nice advice)

I'd ask them "have you been a winning player at poker for the last couple of years?". Yes I have I've started with a 50$ BR at stars, in Oct/06 and have money now in 6 sites...(transfers) I'm just finding it harder now compared to one and two years ago. Poker to the world has become HUGE so many books, videos and advice to take from others. I learn by just playing and experiences I win I learn I lose I most definetly learn it was almost easier going off of instinct MY BRAIN IS EXPLODING [/quote]

One thing is that AQs is not a strong enough hand here to take on a huge PF raise like this.So how many hands bigger than AQ suited...Yes he could have PP, AK etc now his odds are increased and we still down to a showdown..(I mighta he mighta) It is definitely NOT a PF all in hand with a full stack early in a tournament or SNG. Most of the time you will be dominated here. so I'm folding to 500 chippies with AQc gut instint says gogogo...cause you know if I call, I already committed the rest of my chips in this hand

I would suggest watching some of the donkament videos and seeing how pre flop raises and c-bets work to build big stack without having to go to showdown. Playing is great, but you are only seeing your own cards. Seeing all the cards face up will really give you an idea of where to be aggressive and when not to be. It is a really good learning tool IMO. I have been listening to a few...it is helping ..I will try and listen to more.. thx for your advice.

Hey, Aloe's posting the HA section! Ya and giving myself and everyone a headache No it's cool...Live and Learn

In my opinion limping isn't the worst thing this early, especially at this level, just because raising often doesn't accomplish much. Even if you do raise, be prepared to be up against A-rag off suit or Q8s. If you meet resistance, it's a judgement call whether some bizzare preflop hand hit the flop, or they're pushing middle pair. (I was hoping the limp would work, thinking I only have one or two in front of me. bad judgement on my part, I know I shoulda raised, but seriously, the concensus is 100-150...I woulda done at least 300, just to see how serious they are

Just be prepared to fold when someone pushes.(if limp worked I was prepared to do this, losing only 20 chippies)


That's the reason for folding anything but high pairs against pushes early on. Wait for the opening donkfest to be done before assuming the players know what they're doing. (I really think my AQ suited is just as good against most PP)[/quote]

Even before i had scrolled down to Robs post i was thinking a minimum of 100 here, esp with so many limpers behind - you want to get rid of as many of those as possible.(One of the biggest keys here was definely getting rid of the limpers..I know I shoulda raised at least...definetly bad move on my part.

And as for the nutter who raises with A-4 well they shouldnt have even been in the pot, but because of all the limping how could they refuse
EXACTLY

I remember reading this here a couple of months back and have to agree, if you just pop out the usual 3xBB those who have already entered will only have a small amount to call and so will more than likely think 'its worth a stab at' (Yep thats why at these levels I would throw out 300 chippies in stead of the usual 3xblind)

As stated, raise prflop to 120~.agreed on raise but not amount

So the question is, do you want to risk it? If you win you will have a big early chip lead which if played correctly will make it easy to boss the table. My sentiments as well...thats why I just went for it...but shoulda called preflop tho first.

But, this is a drawing hand, and 27o isn't much worse than a coinflip. Your right a coinflip[/quote]

Thanks Gentlemen for all your input on this I really appreciate it..I went to the low limits to relearn everything again, before moving back up..I have PT, but havent' used it much lately, look forward to learning more....this wasnt' so bad...I thought you guys were goin to brutalize me here

 

[gord962]

so I'm folding to 500 chippies with AQc gut instint says gogogo...cause you know if I call, I already committed the rest of my chips in this hand

If you can't raise AQs PF, how can you call a 25XBB raise?? AQs is not a check push hand either in the first level of blinds with a full stack. This is an easy fold for me. AQs is not something I am willing to die with. You raise to $120 or so and this prob doesn't happen.

 

[heatfan03]

your question about the limits. i too am playing at lower limits and one thing i learnt from Online ACe By Scott Fischman is to stay tight at the beginning especially at lower limits to let others fight the donks. Unless u got a real good hand.

 

[skoldpadda]

What gord said. Please don't go broke with A bloody Q in the first level of a tournament. Suited or not. Why not just flip quarters or go play Rochambaud at Ultimate Bet or wherever? Wait for better situations and use your skill, position, reads, and patience.

Raise to 120. Fold to the all-in. Next hand.

 

[tiltboy]

First of all I know one of the biggest mistakes I made was limping especially the position I was in, you guys have taught me better than that. How much would you have raised? I was thinking maybe 200 or all in? Woulda scared most of the field to fold and left me with one player I figure.

To be honest in low buy in tourneys its hard to say i've raised 7XBB with K's and lost to two pair (10-6). You must raise. With experience and read of a table you can gauge the amount required to narrow the field. You can start with 3-4XBB for now with AQ and limpers.

My biggest question is no matter what I did I don't think he woulda folded..my reason being is this is only a 1$ sng. What does he have to lose a buck Were only like 3 hands into the tourney.

So do stakes make a big difference on how you play and how far you are into the tournament make a major difference? I think it does

I agree but you have to bet in order to gauge their hand. Lower stakes i can be a little cautious because i know what kind of hands people will play with Ax, connectors, high cards regardless of the raise and position. I like to raise pre flop narrow the field as it is easier to push a small number of people off a hand post flop.

My thoughts at the time is that everybody limped in and I thought I would see the flop and draw more dollars out of them if I hit. If I don't and someone else after the flop raised like 100 or 200 I woulda folded, therefore only losing 20 chippies.(still in for another round)?

If everyone limps (10 people) and the board was Qs-9c-8s-6d would you feel comfortable calling a huge raise - not to say you wouldnt but limpers could hold anything and your passive play will only leave you with difficult decisions at times. Limper called call with Q-9, Q-8, 7-5, 10-7 etc

Oh ya, how do you loosen up a tight player when they been playin that way for a couple of years?

Practise - im not sure what i am because i play differently depending on the table and what has happened to me on the table. I tend to play hands in certain situations and often attempt to steal if i see the opportunity. If a table is really loose i can tighten up unless i have a read on a particular player. I have called 7-5, 7-4 etc against loose and tight players because i feel i can either milk them or get out if there is danger.

 

[tiltboy]

double post - sorry