so I busted out the following way...

nuts422

nuts422

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I really regret this play since I ended up busting out, but here is how it went down:

This was a buck buy-in MTT on Full Tilt. We're down to about 100 players after starting with 332.

I have about 21,000 in chips and blinds were 2 and 400. I got frisky with 10s-Js in middle position and raised 1bb before the flop. To my surprise, 4 players flat called. Pot is some 3,500.

Flop comes Ks, 5s, 3s.

Being first to act, with 4 other guys, I move all in.

Player to my left calls with pair of K's.

Button also calls with As.

Now, I never expected them to call it with a relatively small amount invested in the pot and negative expectation (they have to put me on a flush).

Of course another spade comes on the turn and I busted.

Of course, it is easy to say these guys made a donkey call but did I make a dumb play too? I am inclined to think that I did because if I didn't I'd still be playing, and I probably would have cashed. My main thinking is that is was just the wrong time to make a move like this. I was sitting comfortably, and I should have waited until the field narrowed down some more before I got crazy...

Anyway, just interested to hear how you guys would have played it differently.
 
Dwilius

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You busted? The As had your 20k covered and called? If the As was a shortstack with 2 others in a call makes sense. What did the two callers have for a stack?
 
nuts422

nuts422

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You busted? The As had your 20k covered and called? If the As was a shortstack with 2 others in a call makes sense. What did the two callers have for a stack?

He had me covered.
 
nuts422

nuts422

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I didn't want a call of course; thats why I made a huge bet (of course, I dont mind top pair calling ...)
 
OzExorcist

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Anyway, just interested to hear how you guys would have played it differently.

OK, here's how I would've played it:

First, I wouldn't have minraised it. I might've limped it in, and I might've raised 3-4BB with it if I was feeling frisky. Though truth be known, in middle position I'd probably just have folded it.

What I definitely wouldn't have done was be surprised when four other players came into the pot as well. By only putting in a minimum raise, you're giving other players fantastic odds to hang about with all sorts of hands.

Second, on the flop I wouldn't have shoved. I'd have bet somewhere around 2000-2500. There are only two spades people can be holding that can hurt you, and their chances of hitting their flush are reduced because you're holding two of their outs. You want to extract value here, not make a bet that only an ace-high flush can reasonably call.

I suspect it's likely that, if you had've bet 2000-2500, the player holding KK would've shoved over the top of you anyway (or just re-raised you, depending on their stack size), in which case you'd go ahead and call.

The mistakes were all in the bet sizing, in my eyes.
 
newfyninja

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I gotta with Oz and a few others on this one. The shove is a little too frisky, but easy to do since you're convinced (correctly) you have the best hand at the moment.
A larger raise preflop would have helped narrow down the field a little but the KK would have likely reraised you there which would have probably been a good thing too since you could have dumped it then after running into a wall.
 
nuts422

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OK, here's how I would've played it:

First, I wouldn't have minraised it. I might've limped it in, and I might've raised 3-4BB with it if I was feeling frisky. Though truth be known, in middle position I'd probably just have folded it.

What I definitely wouldn't have done was be surprised when four other players came into the pot as well. By only putting in a minimum raise, you're giving other players fantastic odds to hang about with all sorts of hands.

Second, on the flop I wouldn't have shoved. I'd have bet somewhere around 2000-2500. There are only two spades people can be holding that can hurt you, and their chances of hitting their flush are reduced because you're holding two of their outs. You want to extract value here, not make a bet that only an ace-high flush can reasonably call.

I suspect it's likely that, if you had've bet 2000-2500, the player holding KK would've shoved over the top of you anyway (or just re-raised you, depending on their stack size), in which case you'd go ahead and call.

The mistakes were all in the bet sizing, in my eyes.



I agree it should probably be folded preflop. That part is fine. I am not sure I understand the 2/3 of the pot raise after the flop. Suppose now the guy with the K's re-raises (which is completely crazy btw). The As likely calls in this case, and I would have to call the re-raise, or re-raise him all in at this point. If I call the re-raise and the spade comes on the turn, I can conclude I am probably beat by a higher flush and fold on the turn. This is fine, as leaves me with some 75% of my stack.
 
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I really regret this play since I ended up busting out, but here is how it went down:

This was a buck buy-in MTT on Full Tilt. We're down to about 100 players after starting with 332.

I have about 21,000 in chips and blinds were 2 and 400.
...Ok, so you have about 50 BBs. Thats great, you've got nothing to worry about.

I got frisky with 10s-Js in middle position and raised 1bb before the flop. To my surprise, 4 players flat called. Pot is some 3,500.
...Ooh, dont min-raise. You gain nothing from this type of move. And yeah, I dont see why you're surprised that so many people called. They're getting good odds.

Flop comes Ks, 5s, 3s.
...Nice flop for you.

Being first to act, with 4 other guys, I move all in.
....I, um, dont understand this move. You start of with 21K and you raise 800 preflop leaving you with 20,200. The pot is 3,500 and you go all in. You risk 20K to win 3.5K...it doesnt make sense. Not only that but you dont even have the 100% nut hand. You might have the nuts at the moment.

Player to my left calls with pair of K's.
...I'd do the same thing. Actually, I'd raise.

Button also calls with As.
...I might fold with this, but not uncommon with $1 tournaments.

Now, I never expected them to call it with a relatively small amount invested in the pot and negative expectation (they have to put me on a flush).
...2 things: A) its a $1 MTT and B) your play looks like you're trying to buy the pot. I dont think they're going to put you on a flush, but maybe someone who doesnt want to see another spade come out. No way KK is folding.

Of course another spade comes on the turn and I busted.
...Happens, that sucks.

Of course, it is easy to say these guys made a donkey call but did I make a dumb play too?
...KK didnt make a donkey call. Only thing they did wrong was not raise PF. Ace spade was a bad call IMO.

I am inclined to think that I did because if I didn't I'd still be playing, and I probably would have cashed. My main thinking is that is was just the wrong time to make a move like this. I was sitting comfortably, and I should have waited until the field narrowed down some more before I got crazy...
...You got too involved in a hand you really didnt need to. And you over played the hand when you didnt need to. Yes, it definitely was the wrong time to get fancy and it bit you in the butt.

Anyway, just interested to hear how you guys would have played it differently.
...Differently, I wouldnt have min-raised PF. In fact I wouldnt have raised at all. With your stack size and blinds, I might limped into the pot. On the flop, I would bet out about 3/4s, probably get slow played by KK and called by As. On the turn, I'll slow down after the fourth spade shows. Or if I get raised by KK and called by As, I might consider folding. Most likely, though, I fold this hand PF.
Above.
 
widowmaker89

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I dont think anyone had KK, the guy had a king which paired the board. Obviously we all agree the min raise is a bad move here. All in is not needed but you got a great result with 2 callers and only a spade can beat you. You were a good favorite to win this and have a huge stack. You were in a great spot.

While you probably should have bet less the only reason I would think to bet less is to get more callers. You want to get all in here so it worked out great, the cards just didnt cooperate.

Getting in the money really shouldnt be your goal in these tournys, you gotta shoot for the FT. Not saying take risks just to get more chips but if you can get your money in here being a pretty big favorite you want to do it.
 
nuts422

nuts422

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Just to clarify: the guy to my left has K-rag and makes pair of K's on the flop.

Thanks for great responses, especially Philty who's opinions I appreciate (unlike his speedo)


n
 
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ph_il

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Just to clarify: the guy to my left has K-rag and makes pair of K's on the flop.

Thanks for great responses, especially Philty who's opinions I appreciate (unlike his speedo
LOL. My bad, I misread it as he was holding pocket Kings for a flopped set.

Oh and you cant hate on The Hoff (avatar).
 
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CfPoker

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Why does everyone seem to be using the word "frisky" today? :)
 
dwbrown7680

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Not to beat a dead horse, but everyone has said pretty much the same thing so I won't bother. The hand wasn't played horribly up until the flop, but the shove was definetely not the best choice to make there, considering pot size relative to ur stack. Overbetting isn't a bad thing here, and really was a good move. In my experiences and from what I've seen of others, when someone overbets the pot or shoves on a board such as that, they rarely ever have the flush, and are overbetting TPTK or the 4 flush draw. So in that aspect, overbetting is good here, as many will percieve it as weakness. From that point, you got it in with the best and just got drawn out on, nothing much you can do there but march on and try again next time.
 
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Bentheman87

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Preflop wasn't as bad as everyone is saying. J10 suited is a playable hand from middle position, and often the BB will fold to a min raise. Not saying min raises are good but it's not a disaster. Limping is ok too and so is folding. On the flop you should have bet pot or slightly less than pot. If someone raises, reraise all in. Then after two calls, when the spade came it's safe to assume one of them called with the ace or king of spade and now you're drawing dead, so you can check fold. And you would still have a decent sized stack.
 
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p0K35

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This is a mistake, but I thought Bentheman87 post was very good, spot on.

But I have a coupla ???

It's a $1 buyin, expect donkish play until the end. Enough said. Not a ?

WTH is the min raise supposed to accomplish? Really? Limp and call a standard raise. Tricky like, with your sooted connectors. There are some advanced plays to make with monsters with the min-raise, but they rarely work with SCs. But this is $1 buyin, doubt any moves will work. Still the min-raise is pretty useless here, just wonder what do you expect from this? Not gonna thin the crowd, perhaps smallish pot building? Bad move with SCs..

Ok, the flop hits you hard, but is actually not the greatest thing you want, and Bentheman87, nails this. You play SCs for value, not necessarily for the fl, even the J high fl. OOP, you should try to manage a smaller pot, and not get killed here, as donkeys luv them fl draws, and even TPCK. Give them rope and a chance to get out, cheap.

Lastly, you overplayed the hand, and given the callers, you did get in with the best, and perhaps you want those calls with your allin, but seems risky to me. I agree with the post of betting 18k to win, 3.5k, not a very advanced move. And this hands, shows you why, got what you wanted, the triple up, and then got what you didn't want, the suckout. Actually bad plays on your opponents, as the setK can't see a fl flop, and nutflush draw, can't see the odds...

No need to reply.
 
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nathanthomp

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LOL is this a joke post? Raise more PF, bet less on flop. You are begging to go broke playing like that.
 
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