So, how do you play limit holdem?

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I'm 4-tabling without PT, so no reads. Converter doesn't like HORSE hands and I'm too lazy to edit it.

pokerstars Game #6203519844: HORSE (Hold'em Limit, $1/$2) - 2006/09/07 - 15:35:44 (ET)
Table 'Industria' 8-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: DrJons ($52.30 in chips)
Seat 2: blkcatjr ($32.20 in chips)
Seat 3: Qhr1s ($55.50 in chips)
Seat 4: stupid steve ($42.20 in chips)
Seat 5: the WINNER ($62.15 in chips)
Seat 6: pokerhein ($46.55 in chips)
Seat 8: badbeat987 ($61.35 in chips)
the WINNER: posts small blind $0.50
pokerhein: posts big blind $1
NoDakJJ: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Qhr1s [Kd Ks]
badbeat987: folds
DrJons: folds
blkcatjr: folds
Qhr1s: raises $1 to $2
stupid steve: folds
the WINNER: folds
pokerhein: raises $1 to $3
Qhr1s: raises $1 to $4
Betting is capped
pokerhein: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Ah 4s 4d]
pokerhein: bets $1
Qhr1s: ???

Is this one of those 'turn into a calling station' hands on the flop and if he continues to lead? I really have no clue what I'm doing in limit.

 

[ChuckTs]

Wish I could help ya....but I'm just as clueless. Hence why I only play LHE once in a blue moon.

Fredrik!

 

[shortstacked]

callthe $1 he might have an ACE

 

[mrsnake3695]

Limit is a totally different animal from no-limit. Personally I think you need to be much tighter and much more aggressive in Limit than No-Limit. But you will find that many people play any ace, any 2 flush cards, any 2 straight cards and even any face cards hands. So, tight starting hand play will win money in the long run. When you have a hand you figure to be best bet and raise whenever you can since many will chase and you must make them play.

In this hand I would call the $1. On the turn, no maker what happens I would raise his $2 bet. Why you ask? Well if he doesn't have an ace he will most likely fold and you win the pot, if he does have an ace you will know right then, if he raises you know he has a pair of aces or better so you might as well fold, if he calls you might save a bet on the river since you will most likely call a river bet with knigs anyway. So it won't cost you anything extra by making the raise.

Another thing in Limit, players that make preflop raises allways bet the flop (unless they flop a monster in which case they will wait till the turn when the stakes go up to bet). So his bet does not automatically mean he has an ace.

So, since it is limit, I would not advise folding this hand here.

 

[titans4ever]

Here is one thing in limit that can't happen in NL. You can call all the way down for $5 more. You call here, call the turn for $2 and the river for $2 to see what he has. You know what the bets will be and what is it worth for you to see his cards.

Call the flop bet here for $1 to see the turn I think is obvious.

The turn is the important card here, when the stakes double. He leads out with $2. Here is your decision. You can reraise to $4 to see if he truely does have the A but you set yourself up to be reraised to $6 and pushed from the pot. Option two is you can just call the $2 and pay $2 more on the river by just calling if he bets to see his hand for as cheap as possible. If he does not have the A you still can win but if he does you see it for as cheap as possible and you get one more card to try and beat his hand.

I personally would just call all the way down and see what he has as cheap as possible.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I disagree, I think. (edit: this is in reply to mrsnake)

Let's say I call the flop, the turn bricks, villain leads and I raise as suggested.

- If villain is bluffing, I may well be losing a bet by raising, as he may well have led the river. The board is not draw-heavy, so I need not be overly worried about him outdrawing me with his bluff.
- If villain has an Ace, I'm losing the same amount as if one bet each went in on the turn and river (assuming villain led, or I bet if villain checked the river), plus there is a chance of course I could hit one of the two Kings on the river, which I of course won't get to see if i raise-fold.
- If villain has something like QQ/JJ, well, I don't really have a clue what happens after bet-raise on the turn. Thoughts? >_>

This could of course all be nonsense because I have so little experience of limit, but I don't think I'm far off.

 

[mrsnake3695]

Well I may have worded it wrong, but it was just a suggestion as one of the ways you could play it. It's an aggressive move and aggresion can pay off although calling down with that isn't a bad play either and I have no problems with that way to play it (unless you hit another king of course). Reraising on the turn may also slow him down in the future when you may want to stay in a hand cheaply.

Anyway, I recently saw a good video on limit holdem that clarified a lot of good points about limit holdem. Here's a brief synopsis of what was said:

90% of poker players lose money
Poker pros make 80% of their money playing Limit Holdem
MTT should be a "reward" for good Limit play (i.e. making money)

Playing:

Overall play is Tight Aggressive (this is said for every form of poker but is crucial for long term limit profit.

Unentered Pot:

Early position: Raise with any pair, AK, and any 2 cards jack or higher that are suited. FOLD EVERYTHING ELSE. No limping from early position.

Middle position: Above hands, plus pick up suited A10, K10, Q10 & J10, plus play AQ, AJ, KQ, QJ unsuited. Raise with these hands fold everything else.

Late Position: You can raise with almost any 2 cards here depending on your reads of the blinds.

In a riased pot:

Remember the gap concept which says you need a stronger hand to call a raise than make a raise. So, if someone in first position raises and you are in late position you need a very strong hand to continue play but unless the pot is raised and reraise you should play every pocket pair. You will hit a set on the flop one out of every 7 times you have pocket pairs and sets will usually win you a large pot, which is why it is recommended you play all pocket pairs (remember, 22 is favored over AK). So in a once raised pot, raise with AA, KK, QQ, AK suited, call with all other pairs and any 2 suited cards jack or higher.

Blinds:

IN a once raised pot:

IN BB, raise with anything you would raise with from UTG, call any 2 suited cards, any 2 cards that would make a straight you are hoping to flop a monster here, be careful if you flop middle or bottom pair here.

Limping:

Only limp in a pot where 2 or more players have already limped and you hold suited connectors 67 or higher, or suited ace X. Fold these hands to a prior raise. Raise with any hand you would raise with UTG. You must make people pay to chase and limp in if you have a hand. People love to limp with weak hands hoping to flop a big hand cheaply. If you have a hand don't let them. if you have one of there weak hands ONLY LIMP in if several others have already limped in.

Generally if you hand isn't good enough to raise with you should fold. Long term you will save more money by folding mediocre hands than you will make when you occasionally hit one.

Fold suited crap (Except for the above limited exceptions). You only have a 6% chance of hitting a flush when seeing all 5 cards with 2 cards to a flush in your hand. Also, if you don't have the ace, it is not certain you will win even if you do hit.

Suited connectors are good in No-Limit because if you hit with it you can get someones whole stack so your equity is good. You don't have that in limit (that's why it's called limit) so generally you should stay away from these hands in limit. Suited cards and connectors go down in value in limit while pocket pairs and high cards go up in value.

OK enough for this. My hnads are tired.

 

[F Paulsson]

I'm in a bit of a rush to get to work, but..

Call flop, call turn, call river. If he checks any street, you bet. Raising at any point isn't going to make you any more money than calling will. The worst thing that could happen is that you raise and he folds QQ. Call down.

 

[Vintage82]

I raise the flop, and fold to a 3-bet.

With a capped pot pre-flop you know he's holding a premium hand and the flop raise will likely scare off anything less than an A holding, or turn him into a calling station, saving you a few big bets.

If he just calls, assuming the turn is a blank fold to a bet or take the free river card.

 

[zinzan1000]

I raise his flop bet to gain some information.
If he then just calls, I put him on a weak ace, smaller pocket pair etc.
If he re-raises, I put him on a strong ace, two pair, or trips.
I would still call a re-raise, and by doing so would have paid $3 in total after the flop.
Just calling $1 after the flop, leaves me with no information and the predicament of whether or not I want to call for $2 more if/when he bets after the turn.
By raising his flop bet instead of calling and maybe having to call a re-raise, I have spent an extra $2 but gained information.
It is going to cost me at least $2 after the turn anyway, but with less information at my disposal.
Depending on his actions after a flop raise by me, I then play the hand accordingly with the information I have gained.

 

[F Paulsson]

With a capped pot pre-flop you know he's holding a premium hand and the flop raise will likely scare off anything less than an A holding

His range is pretty small here, but lots of non-premium hands are included in it. See below. You don't want these hands to fold, so raising to push them out is not good.

I raise his flop bet to gain some information.

This is not how I would play it, but it's not awful. The question I want to pose here is what you're going to do with the information you gain. You pay $1 extra for something - what are you using it for?

If he then just calls, I put him on a weak ace, smaller pocket pair etc.

Yup. It doesn't take a monster to 3-bet from what could be a steal attempt from the CO, a hand like A-8 is quite possible.

If he re-raises, I put him on a strong ace, two pair, or trips.

Well, he has two pair or a full house, but yeah, if he's completely insane he could be holding K-4 or something I guess.

I would still call a re-raise, and by doing so would have paid $3 in total after the flop.

Yes, because you actually have to call a re-raise. You're getting near pot odds - and definitely implied - for peeling to catch a set. He could have A-A, but we don't know that; his range is KJ+, A8+, 77+, when he 3-bet PF, I'd say. That range doesn't change much when he leads the flop, except there's a very good chance that he doesn't have a strong ace or A-A. Chris took charge of the hand when he capped, and if this guy has AA or AK he will look to checkraise.

Depending on his actions after a flop raise by me, I then play the hand accordingly with the information I have gained.

That's the tricky part though: How do you play it once you've raised and he calls? Do you check behind on the turn? Or do you bet turn, bet river?

If you raise the flop and he folds the turn, you've potentially lost 2BB that you could have gained by just calling. If you raise the flop and get 3-bet, you may be setting yourself up to folding a winner if he's tricky.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

With a capped pot pre-flop you know he's holding a premium hand...

His range is pretty small here...

lolol, here's the full hand.

PokerStars Game #6203519844: HORSE (Hold'em Limit, $1/$2) - 2006/09/07 - 15:35:44 (ET)
Table 'Industria' 8-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: DrJons ($52.30 in chips)
Seat 2: blkcatjr ($32.20 in chips)
Seat 3: Qhr1s ($55.50 in chips)
Seat 4: stupid steve ($42.20 in chips)
Seat 5: the WINNER ($62.15 in chips)
Seat 6: pokerhein ($46.55 in chips)
Seat 8: badbeat987 ($61.35 in chips)
the WINNER: posts small blind $0.50
pokerhein: posts big blind $1
NoDakJJ: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Qhr1s [Kd Ks]
badbeat987: folds
DrJons: folds
blkcatjr: folds
Qhr1s: raises $1 to $2
stupid steve: folds
the WINNER: folds
pokerhein: raises $1 to $3
Qhr1s: raises $1 to $4
Betting is capped
pokerhein: calls $1
*** FLOP *** [Ah 4s 4d]
pokerhein: bets $1
Qhr1s: calls $1
*** TURN *** [Ah 4s 4d] [Jh]
pokerhein: bets $2
Qhr1s: calls $2
*** RIVER *** [Ah 4s 4d Jh] [Qs]
pokerhein: bets $2
Qhr1s: calls $2
*** SHOW DOWN ***
pokerhein: shows [5h 2d] (a pair of Fours)
Qhr1s: shows [Kd Ks] (two pair, Kings and Fours)
pokerhein is sitting out
Qhr1s collected $17.75 from pot
pokerhein leaves the table
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $18.50 | Rake $0.75
Board [Ah 4s 4d Jh Qs]
Seat 1: DrJons folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: blkcatjr folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: Qhr1s showed [Kd Ks] and won ($17.75) with two pair, Kings and Fours
Seat 4: stupid steve (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: the WINNER (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: pokerhein (big blind) showed [5h 2d] and lost with a pair of Fours
Seat 8: badbeat987 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[zinzan1000]

I think you lost out on a potentially bigger pot, but with the ace on the flop caution was an ok play too.

 

[F Paulsson]

Well played, sir.

 

[zinzan1000]

I also think the guy thought he was still playing Razz or H/L.

 

[zinzan1000]

What are you using it for?

To try and establish if he was just continuation betting the flop, whether he missed the flop, or held premium cards.
His response to my flop raise may indicate to me how I now want to continue on the turn, plus its cheaper for me to gain information pre-flop and post flop.
I am also trying to build the pot early keeping in mind there is a good chance he does not have a strong ace or AA, although I must allow for that possibility...

ooops sorry for the bold lettering.

 

[F Paulsson]

Well, I realize what information you get and I realize that it (information) in general can help you make better decisions, but: How will you play this hand differently based on the information? Like I said, if you raise and he calls, I'm not interested in what that has told you, but how you will act differently based on the new information.

If the information that you paid an extra bet for doesn't change the way you would play the hand (short of him folding) then you have no use for it. Right?

 

[zinzan1000]

Well, I realize what information you get and I realize that it (information) in general can help you make better decisions, but: How will you play this hand differently based on the information? Like I said, if you raise and he calls, I'm not interested in what that has told you, but how you will act differently based on the new information.

I also realize that you realize the information gained by acting as I described, I answered the question you posed " what are you using it for "?


If the information that you paid an extra bet for doesn't change the way you would play the hand (short of him folding) then you have no use for it. Right?

Other than building the pot, and depending on his response, of course it has its uses.
I am more concerned with the way he is about to play his hand at this point, not mine.
Was he protecting his hand?, was he representing the ace?
did he think I had a marginal hand and tried to take me off it?
For $1 I am happy to make this play given that an ace flopped.

As the thread starter has now posted the complete hand I find it less convincing for me to comment on it.

As it turns out he was up against a somewhat silly opponent.
After seeing the flop, a silly opponent would tend to like the fact that he flopped a gut shot straight with the rags he decided to make a stand with.
I am guessing the silly opponent is going to be hanging around for a while after the flop.

Plus I cant see him folding my flop raise.

 

[zinzan1000]

On a more interesting note, I find it quite amusing that a player declaring they have no clue what they are doing when it comes to limit poker can play out the hand in a mirror image of someone that is clearly much more advanced in this discipline.

 

[F Paulsson]

Interesting concept that we're just barely scratching the surface of here. Made-up hand:

You have J-J on the button. You openraise, the small blind 3-bets (for shits and giggles, pretend I'm in the small blind, and you have been raising frequently in stealing-position lately) and you decide to cap. I call.

The flop comes A-7-2. The small blind checks.

Do you bet or check? Same as KK?

 

[zinzan1000]

I bet.

 

[F Paulsson]

Bet both hands (JJ and KK)?

Hint: One of them is close between betting and checking. The other one isn't.

 

[zinzan1000]

Bet both hands (JJ and KK)?

Hint: One of them is close between betting and checking. The other one isn't.

(One is check and the other is bet, KK and JJ,)???
I am not being funny FP but there can be no nailed down correct play.
I play the way I play, you play the way you play.
The thread starters own declaration of having no clue what they were doing prompted me to post, I was giving my opinion and advice for what it is worth.

As you can well understand, its largely dependant on whether you wish to adopt a tight or an aggressive type of game.

I understand you may be trying to help me, and others of course, so for that reason I think its best that the question you pose is open to all, as I'm sure you don't need my help.

 

[F Paulsson]

(I wasn't actually aiming the question at you, Zinzan, even though I can see how it would be interpretted that way. It was a general point that I wanted to make - you just happened to be the first one to answer it. The topic is certainly open to all.)

I agree that there's no "nailed down correct play" but I will strongly argue that one of these hands is a lot more OK to check behind than the other, and that's the K-K.

The reason being that with pocket kings, you're in a situation in this hand where you're either "way ahead" or "way behind" (sometimes referred to as WA/WB). If you're ahead, your opponent has very few outs to beat you. if you're behind, you have very few outs to beat your opponent (e.g. he has an ace). Checking behind in this situation will not change your chances of winning the pot much, and in fact it may be a good play if it entices your opponent to bet a hand like 9-9 on the turn that he would otherwise have check/folded.

With J-J, however, you're no longer in the realm of WA/WB, because there are overcards to your hand that will make your opponent go from "behind" to "ahead." Checking and allowing a hand like KQ can cost you the pot. With J-J, that's a hand that you want to charge the maximum for. With KK, the risk of being outdrawn is much smaller.