So annoyed.

[ukaliks]

Check this hand out cos it realy got me wound up. Did i play it bad or was i just unlucky.

Transcript for your last 5 games requested by ukaliks (jetpack_rocket@hotmail.com)
*********** # 1 **************
pokerstars Game #18151394980: Tournament #91693902, $1.00+$0.10 Hold'em No Limit - Level XIII (600/1200) - 2008/06/15 - 10:18:54 (ET)
Table '91693902 13' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: ukaliks (22172 in chips)
Seat 2: hellraisernz (78397 in chips)
Seat 3: Dick Gunn (8931 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 4: Torre1985 (67410 in chips) out of hand (moved from another table into small blind)
Seat 5: TYTATAI (17400 in chips)
Seat 6: jimsmyuncle (34799 in chips)
Seat 7: Chongers212 (10415 in chips)
Seat 8: knatt_89 (50096 in chips)
Seat 9: gavin973 (45633 in chips) is sitting out
ukaliks: posts the ante 125
hellraisernz: posts the ante 125
TYTATAI: posts the ante 125
jimsmyuncle: posts the ante 125
Chongers212: posts the ante 125
knatt_89: posts the ante 125
gavin973: posts the ante 125
TYTATAI: posts small blind 600
jimsmyuncle: posts big blind 1200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ukaliks [Ah Ts]
Chongers212: folds
knatt_89: folds
gavin973: folds
ukaliks: raises 2400 to 3600
hellraisernz: folds
TYTATAI: folds
jimsmyuncle: calls 2400
*** FLOP *** [Qh 8c Td]
jimsmyuncle: bets 6000
ukaliks: raises 12447 to 18447 and is all-in
jimsmyuncle: calls 12447
*** TURN *** [Qh 8c Td] [2h]
*** RIVER *** [Qh 8c Td 2h] [7c]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
jimsmyuncle: shows [9d 6d] (a straight, Six to Ten)
ukaliks: shows [Ah Ts] (a pair of Tens)
jimsmyuncle collected 45569 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 45569 | Rake 0
Board [Qh 8c Td 2h 7c]
Seat 1: ukaliks showed [Ah Ts] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 2: hellraisernz (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: TYTATAI (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: jimsmyuncle (big blind) showed [9d 6d] and won (45569) with a straight, Six to Ten
Seat 7: Chongers212 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: knatt_89 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: gavin973 folded before Flop (didn't bet)

Id expect that type of move from noobs n early on in the tourney but i didnt realy think a guy wud b happy to loose $20k or his chips to a gut shot 7 to make his str8. I know if i made that move id of lost the hand, the dam lucky bastard.

 

[Irexes]

He had a double gutshot and probably odds to call at that point (stil not great but understandable).

But your play is pretty grim getting all in with 2nd pair uneccessarily there with a decent stack.

 

[ryaned]

Good post OP...tough beat...but I question both post flop plays...his 5BB bet and your shove...maybe some of the more experienced CC folks like Rex will add their 2 cents

 

[ukaliks]

It was desperate play so it was stupid. Ah whey we all learn from mistakes.

 

[dj11]

Level 13 so you've probably been sitting at this table with this villain for a while, and there are unsaid reads in the OP. He has you covered.

You are giving him little to no credit for possibly having a Q. 2nd pair is not a good hand to put your life on the line with.

I fold to his aggression here much of the time with no reads, and with reads I believe you have not shared, perhaps more often.

It sure looks like you created some bad mojo for yourself here. My vote goes to you playing it bad. Do not mistake my comment suggesting villain played it well, I think he played it worse, and got lucky.

 

[mrsnake3695]

Villian calling your raise reflop isn't a horrible play from the BB. He did have a double gut shot not just a gut shot as your said in your OP. If you didn't recognize this, there may be a hole in your game you don't recognize. Since most people miss most flops his making a semi-bluff bet her after the flop is certainly a good play under the circumstance. Your play after that is a problem. Could he have AQ, KQ, QJ, Q10,or J9? Certainly. All those hands have you beat and won't fold to your all in reraise. Your push reraise is less than half the pot so although close both a fold and call can be justified.

By the way A10 is a trap hand. I probably would have folded pre-flop. I've learned to stay away from these hands except under ideal circumstances.

 

[marble]

It was desperate play so it was stupid. Ah whey we all learn from mistakes.

what mistake?

i really don't understand the other comments. what i mean is this, if both hands were face up, i would of played it exactly the same way on the flop. yes he could of had QQQ or another set or what ever, but he DIDN'T, villain had a double belly, so the best move is to go all in and hope he doesn't get lucky.

 

[viking999]

what mistake?

i really don't understand the other comments. what i mean is this, if both hands were face up, i would of played it exactly the same way on the flop. yes he could of had QQQ or another set or what ever, but he DIDN'T, villain had a double belly, so the best move is to go all in and hope he doesn't get lucky.

If you have special information to lead you to believe he had only a draw, then it was a good play. If you put it in without knowing what he had and he happened to have a draw, it wasn't necessarily a good play. That's results oriented thinking. Against a random player with no read, he could have easily had a Q or better. Just because he happened to have a worse hand doesn't make it a good play, just a good instance of an undefined quality play.

I'm not saying it wasn't a good play. I'm just saying that the villain having a worse hand this one time doesn't necessarily mean it's a good play overall.

Personally, I'd either fold or call. I think an all-in is usually going to get the rest of our chips in as either a small favorite (against a big draw) or a big underdog (against queens+) with about even probability.

 

[rob5775]

if both hands were face up, i would of played it exactly the same way on the flop.

Except that is not how you play the game. This is a game of incomplete information, and based on the information provided by the OP this is a horrid shove on the flop. Based on incomplete information and the villians hand range (which Mrs. Nake already went over ), this is a bad shove.

 

[jewboy07]

what mistake?

i really don't understand the other comments. what i mean is this, if both hands were face up, i would of played it exactly the same way on the flop. yes he could of had QQQ or another set or what ever, but he DIDN'T, villain had a double belly, so the best move is to go all in and hope he doesn't get lucky.

To be honest this is incorrect...by incorrect i mean that AFTER THE HAND you would have played it the same way but what if he had like QK here and called...next time you're in this spot with second pair are you going to push like this?
yes this time he only had a draw and that is really the only hand you're ahead of here

yes your opponent played this hand much worse than you BUT putting your life on the line with second pair is never (almost never) the right play

an opponent can have almost any hand here as he was in the BB and it isn't hard for him to have at least a Q

i really don't like your play here

 

[marble]

most players play cards face down...i play AS IF the cards were face up....the reason i would shove here is if i strongly believe that my opponent has a draw or worse. now if our hero in this case did not know that or just got lucky, then yes it's a bad play. but i give our hero the benefit of the doubt and assume he knew. hand history allone can't give you the information you need to know what your opponent has, although you can always default to the standard plays.

a SIMILAR situation where your villain DOES have a Q...you fold (that is the correct play). but in this hand he had a DRAW (correct play is to shove). similar is the key word, not exactly the same. it's the small things you catch to know what to do in these situation. if it was identical (rare) then you're SOL.

now if most of you do the same play either way then you are probably average.

 

[Silkroad]

most players play cards face down...i play AS IF the cards were face up....the reason i would shove here is if i strongly believe that my opponent has a draw or worse. now if our hero in this case did not know that or just got lucky, then yes it's a bad play. but i give our hero the benefit of the doubt and assume he knew. hand history allone can't give you the information you need to know what your opponent has, although you can always default to the standard plays.

Philosophically I understand your argument. Well as far as I can tell what jimsmyuncle did were 1. defending his blinds against a 3x raise and 2. betting out on the flop. Without further read let's assume jimsmyuncle is an average player


1. Let's think about what could be the hands that are worth defending. It can be Q-T, Q-J, Q-K, J-T, K-high and A-high. Defending with 9-6s DID surprise me though

2. Hands that one would bet out can be anything. The common ones are top pair, 2nd pair, low pair

It's hard to convince me that based on 1. and 2., you can put someone on a draw and risk your tournament life on it. To me this would be a fold

To push this discussion forward, can you provide the following
- How many people are there in the tournament from the beginning, how many remained and how many positions are paid?
- What's the playing style of jimsmyuncle and your playing style in this tournament?

 

[switch0723]

most players play cards face down...i play AS IF the cards were face up....the reason i would shove here is if i strongly believe that my opponent has a draw or worse. now if our hero in this case did not know that or just got lucky, then yes it's a bad play. but i give our hero the benefit of the doubt and assume he knew. hand history allone can't give you the information you need to know what your opponent has, although you can always default to the standard plays.

a SIMILAR situation where your villain DOES have a Q...you fold (that is the correct play). but in this hand he had a DRAW (correct play is to shove). similar is the key word, not exactly the same. it's the small things you catch to know what to do in these situation. if it was identical (rare) then you're SOL.

now if most of you do the same play either way then you are probably average.

wat?????

all i can understand from your post is your saying, if you can see your opponents hand nad it beats you, you fold, if it doesn't you shove. Ill use that next time i have pocket kings, ill ask if any of my opponenets have aces, if someone says yes ill fold, if not ill shove

I just breifly looked over the hand, and please fold flop, i hate the idea of committing ourselves to 2nd pair. We still have a big enough stack to fold flop and move on

 

[Boeggs]

Bad play on your part.

 

[ukaliks]

Mayb a raise with A10 when everyone folded infront of me isnt a bad play as tryin to pick up the blinds, but mayb i should of raised more to protect my hand. But with a call from the BB could of represented a better hand from AJ-AK or J10 - KQ. He would of re-raised if tryin to protect his BB. To push all-in with middle pair was a bad idea. I havnt been playin poker long so mayb to push all-in against his 1st raise was to act like a semi-bluff but still annoyed how he called for the gut shot. But thats poker 4 u. U can read the best books n play for years n years but the plays of poker will allways be different, where u have to use ur best judgement to be aggressive to try win these tournements.

 

[marble]

all i can understand from your post is your saying, if you can see your opponents hand nad it beats you, you fold, if it doesn't you shove. Ill use that next time i have pocket kings, ill ask if any of my opponenets have aces, if someone says yes ill fold, if not ill shove

you are absolutely correct, i'm glad you're beginning to understand switch.

....except that asking your opponents normally doesnt'y work, unless they say something. you have to figure it out yourself.

but you're in the right track in becoming a better player.

 

[switch0723]

you are absolutely correct, i'm glad you're beginning to understand switch.

....except that asking your opponents normally doesnt'y work, unless they say something. you have to figure it out yourself.

but you're in the right track in becoming a better player.

wat?? Are you high or something?? Your just simply saying poker is easy when everyones hands are face up so you can see what everyone has and what to do, i.e. play like potripper.

I still don't understand, nor do i care tbh

 

[S93]

Marble Poker is NOT a reasult orianted game.
Its about making the right moves and pushing second pair can hardly be considered the right move(90% of the time) even thou the vilian had a worse hand.
There is no way u can know that vilian just had a STD as u could only put him on a range of hands and most of his range haves hero crushed.
Im sure if i could see every ones hole cards i could win the wsop and become a top pro but unfortunetly poker is a game of incomplete information and saying that pushing here is a good move because where ahead is just....idiotic.

 

[KyleJRM]

You can't soulread an opponent into a draw, and putting your tournament on the line with middle pair is almost always bad poker.

That should pretty much sum it up.

 

[marble]

you guys are right....next time the hero should have top pair or quad aces to make a raise all in on the flop, especially on a 1$ tournament

 

[KyleJRM]

you guys are right....next time the hero should have top pair or quad aces to make a raise all in on the flop, especially on a 1$ tournament

Mediocre sarcasm doesn't make you less wrong. Well, you're right that he needs *at least* top pair to stack off.

 

[Kenzie 96]

Guy has you covered, calls your raise then bets after the flop, you push with 2nd pair TK, overly aggressive move IMO. By the way welcome to the forum, good posts, keep em coming.

 

[Inscore77]

Dont re-raise all in with middle pair on this board, I know he pushed into you but a lot of times the with the villian betting out he will have hit top pair and you're drawing to 5 outs. Very disgusting hand though