Was this really a bad play heads up

[naruto_miu]

The question is simple the dude maniac, and I can prove it by showing u some of his winning hands, but my question is for heads up play.... More or less just an ultra loose, aggressive player that gives no credit at all

pokerstars Game #17891065977: Tournament #90722233, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2008/06/03 - 15:11:08 (ET)
Table '90722233 4' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: edmunda (168425 in chips)
Seat 7: abdi122 (101575 in chips)
edmunda: posts the ante 200
abdi122: posts the ante 200
edmunda: posts small blind 1000
abdi122: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to abdi122 [4c 3c]
edmunda: raises 2000 to 4000
abdi122: calls 2000
*** FLOP *** [2c 5c 2h]

I'll post rest in a bit

 

[The Shrog]

What is your question? Is the "play" you're referring to calling the minraise?

 

[dj11]

What your call did was suggest you were sitting with big high pretty cards, so that deception is good, but what also happened is you put yourself in a position where first to act on the turn he can throw a big bet at you, and unless it is an ace, a 6, or a club you will have to fold. That leaves you with a whole lot of outs, and a raise here should have been your play, IMHO.

You should have included his action on the flop.

Heads up is as much about bravado as it is about the cards, and it won't much matter what villains style here is. You will need to get way aggressive to take this from him.

 

[naruto_miu]

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PokerStars Hand History Request - your last 5 games‏From:PokerStars Support (support@pokerstars.com)Sent:June 3, 2008 9:46:52 PMTo: deleted Transcript for your last 5 games requested by abdi122 (deleted*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #17891065977: Tournament #90722233, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2008/06/03 - 15:11:08 (ET)
Table '90722233 4' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: edmunda (168425 in chips)
Seat 7: abdi122 (101575 in chips)
edmunda: posts the ante 200
abdi122: posts the ante 200
edmunda: posts small blind 1000
abdi122: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to abdi122 [4c 3c]
edmunda: raises 2000 to 4000
abdi122: calls 2000
*** FLOP *** [2c 5c 2h]
abdi122: checks
edmunda: bets 24000
abdi122: raises 73375 to 97375 and is all-in
edmunda: calls 73375
*** TURN *** [2c 5c 2h] 7♦The play I was referring to was my flop play

 

[Dr_Dick]

Edmunda's post flop bet is bad, betting 24K to pick up 10K.

Your play is fine, as given the range of hands you may be up against HU you have tremendous fold equity. And if your opponent doesn't fold you have a ton of outs, 15 fairly clean and if he is pushing/calling with overcards like AK/AJ you have more outs.

But villain did raise preflop, overbet the flop, and then called your reraise, so I'm gonna guess 88.

 

[Announced]

The CRAI on the flop is probably the play I'm making as well.

 

[naruto_miu]

Transcript for your last 5 games requested by abdi122 (lilmandoo@hotmail.com)
*********** # 1 **************
PokerStars Game #17891065977: Tournament #90722233, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1000/2000) - 2008/06/03 - 15:11:08 (ET)
Table '90722233 4' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 2: edmunda (168425 in chips)
Seat 7: abdi122 (101575 in chips)
edmunda: posts the ante 200
abdi122: posts the ante 200
edmunda: posts small blind 1000
abdi122: posts big blind 2000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to abdi122 [4c 3c]
edmunda: raises 2000 to 4000
abdi122: calls 2000
*** FLOP *** [2c 5c 2h]
abdi122: checks
edmunda: bets 24000
abdi122: raises 73375 to 97375 and is all-in
edmunda: calls 73375
*** TURN *** [2c 5c 2h] [7d]
*** RIVER *** [2c 5c 2h 7d] [5d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
abdi122: shows [4c 3c] (two pair, Fives and Deuces)
edmunda: shows [7c Tc] (two pair, Sevens and Fives)
edmunda collected 203150 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 203150 | Rake 0
Board [2c 5c 2h 7d 5d]
Seat 2: edmunda (button) (small blind) showed [7c Tc] and won (203150) with two pair, Sevens and Fives
Seat 7: abdi122 (big blind) showed [4c 3c] and lost with two pair, Fives and Deuces

now the question I ask u all is, was this really a bad play from the start or was it actually an ok play regardless of outcome

 

[Dr_Dick]

The play is fine, you can't really put him on this hand. It is heads up, tournament play. His post flop bet was bad and his call was really bad.

When you went over the top, what was he suppose to put you on? The only thing he can beat is a pure bluff. If he was not holding Tc7c, say he held the 88 I predicted, then he could think your all-in reraise was a straight or flush draw. But he is on a flush draw, so when you reraise he can only beat a straight draw or a lower flush draw...terrible call on his part.

 

[p0K35]

now the question I ask u all is, was this really a bad play from the start or was it actually an ok play regardless of outcome

Not really sure why you seem to keep thinking this is a really bad play. It is not a bad play, maybe not the greatest play of all time, but not a bad play.

Think of it this way, HU is a real different animal, and I think you showed 2 very good skills here.

1. You were not afraid to play some tricky trappy cards for a small preflop raise, even if you are OOP.
2. You played quite aggressively, maybe too aggressive.

Was your plan to try and get all your chips in on the flop? I don't get the CR, especially AI. You don't even have a hand, and even if you think you have a huge draw, this is pretty risky. Then again, if you play those hole cards for a small preflop raise OOP, there are very few flops better than this one. Fl draw, OESD, OESFD, plus your could have 4 outs for a pr, that could be good??? Yowsa!

The huge overbet of the flop basically means 2 things:

1. I'm protecting my overpair from a draw.
2. I'm on a draw, or have a monster, and want it to look like I'm trying to protect my hand.

If it is 1, well, you made the correct play, as just calling is the worst you can do. Fold is ok, but come on, with that flop??? Even so, fold is ok, still have plenty of chips to play more hands.

If it is 2, well, it's poker, and you have to believe you drawing very thin (still have strfl draw), or you've lost a bunch of outs.

Overall, I think you played the hand better than your opponent. But there is one caveat, you put your whole stack at risk as a dog and behind (44-56%), and personally I like getting my chips in being ahead, hopefully WAY ahead (80-20%). Granted you don't know this at the time, but selective aggression is a good thing. Just didn't work for you here.

 

[OzExorcist]

I'm gonna throw out a different opinion: I don't like it.

We're playing heads up with an M of around 30, against a maniac villain. The maniac will hang himself eventually if you let him, and the large stack sizes give you the time to let him do it.

If stacks were shorter I wouldn't necessarily be against getting in with a draw. But in this case, we just don't need to. Get yourself a solid hand, let the villain try to bluff you off it, and you'll find yourself holding most of his chips soon enough.

While I agree that aggression is key in heads up, against a maniac opponent who's willing to play for stacks with just ten-high and a draw we really do have to let it take a back seat. We'll never out-aggress a player like that, so we need a different approach.

 

[naruto_miu]

What went through my mind against this player was A)He and I were fighting for dominace over the table since the start of the tourney, and yes I suckout on him 1 or 2 times but he constantly suckout on ppl over the table, for instance and i'll post the exact hand this player at the final table, he by himself took out 5 ppl and they were all suckouts and the worst was when he beat a boat aces full of 6s by hit a 1 outter to make quads, now u may look at this as a good play or a suckout whatever, then all that kept running through my mind at the final table was I got to get this donkey, regardless, yes I admit I made a "loose play", but the trueth is I counted 21 outs, because I thought my draws were all clean, now I made a mistake, I'm not complaing though I feel that even though I lost I made a good move, if (that if is killer) he didn't have my clubs, would I make this play, as u suggested OZ, against a guy like him no, so ty all

 

[naruto_miu]

I personally forgot the main key to poker, which is, what type of player is he, from there your good, but my ego got the better of me, can I post how much I won, and who the winner was?

 

[OzExorcist]

FWIW, I think it's a bit much giving yourself 21 outs (that's the flush draw, the straight draw, or pairing either of your hole cards, right?)

For all of those outs to be clean, the villain has to be calling you with no hand and no draw, and even maniacs don't do that very often.

 

[naruto_miu]

lol, ya that's true, but that's how i was seeing it at the time, hahaha