Question about a hand in a live tournament

J

janmac

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Total posts
2
Chips
0
Here is my situation:
Playing in live tournament I am under the gun position, all hands fold around to me I call big blind. Guy two over on my left calls and button calls. (apparently)
Flop comes Q 5 J and I go all in, guy on my left folds and both the dealer and I think the button had folded. She mucks the folded players cards, mucks the flop, pushes the pot to me and I shove my cards to the middle of the table. Then the button yells, hey, I have cards!!!!
Floor guy rules for dealer to take the pot back, gives me my cards back and shuffles through the muck to pull the flop back out and lets the button call. He has flopped two pair, I only had top pair and he wins and I am out of the tournament.
Was that the correct ruling? I think I got screwed.
 
pickup

pickup

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 22, 2010
Total posts
117
Chips
0
As far as I know if your hand hits the muck and another player has cards, the player with the cards get awarded the pot. Once your hand hits the muck you are not supposed to be able to get it back for any reason.
 
J

janmac

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2011
Total posts
2
Chips
0
My hand was in the middle of the table, not mucked but the flop and other players cards were mucked.
 
cardriverx

cardriverx

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 5, 2010
Total posts
1,441
Awards
1
Chips
0
how are you under the gun and "all hands fold around to me" -- you would be the first to act.

Secondly, why are you limping UTG?

Lastly, why did you think the BTN folded?
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Bronze Level
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,586
Awards
1
Chips
1
Sorry, but the floor was right on this one. First the relevant rules:

Roberts Rules of Poker, Section 2 - House Policies, Decision Making:

1. Management reserves the right to make decisions in the spirit of fairness, even if a strict interpretation of the rules may indicate a different ruling.

3. The proper time to draw attention to a mistake is when it occurs or is first noticed. Any delay may affect the ruling.

5. A ruling may be made regarding a pot if it has been requested before the next deal starts (or before the game either ends or changes to another table). Otherwise, the result of a deal must stand. The first riffle of the shuffle marks the start for a deal.​

Roberts Rules of Poker, Section 3 - General Poker Rules, Dead Hands

2. Cards thrown into the muck may be ruled dead. However, a hand that is clearly identifiable may be retrieved and ruled live at management’s discretion if doing so is in the best interest of the game. An extra effort should be made to rule a hand retrievable if it was folded as a result of incorrect information given to the player.​

Roberts Rules of Poker, Section 3 - General Poker Rules, Irregularities

17. If the deck stub gets fouled for some reason, such as the dealer believing the deal is over and dropping the deck, the deal must still be played out, and the deck reconstituted in as fair a way as possible.​

Roberts Rules of Poker, Section 3 - General Poker Rules, The Showdown

3. Any player, dealer, or floorperson who sees an incorrect amount of chips put into the pot, or an error about to be made in awarding a pot, has an ethical obligation to point out the error. Please help keep mistakes of this nature to a minimum.​

According to Decision Making rules 3 and 5 the mistake was pointed out well before the commencement of the next deal so it's OK to correct it if possible. Showdown rule 3 reinforces that it's correct for the players to point this out.

Dead Hands rule 2 says they're allowed to retrieve your cards (even though I know in this situation they didn't actually touch the muck) and from there it's not too great a leap to retrieve the board cards as well. We get the same thing from Irregularities rule 17.

Since the button still has their cards, yours are easily identifiable, the pot hasn't been fouled (that you've mentioned, anyway - and even if it was, it sounds like the math needed to make it right would be trivial) and it doesn't sound like there's any argument about what the proper board cards are I think under the first rule, as well as all the others, it's perfectly OK for the floor to rule that the hand continue and give the button the opportunity to call.

Only way I can see this being any different is if the button did something unethical or deliberately misleading to make you and the other players think that they had folded when really they still had cards. Which begs the question cardriver has asked as well: why did you think the button had folded?
 
C

Chemist

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 17, 2009
Total posts
1,480
Chips
0
How much was in the pot?
Had the button paid to make the call?
 
Organize a Home Poker Game Starting Hands - Poker Hand Nicknames Rankings - Poker Hands
Top