Putting pressure on the low stack blinds

NineLions

NineLions

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10 player SnG, low buy-in, no PT stats as this site is not supported, and not much in reads as I wasn't paying attention during the first orbits. Generally though, the table is tight and weak, the only aggressive/decent player I've noted is ia who is out of the hand.

I let myself get chipped down to 1,000 when the blinds hit 100. I turned up the aggression and took a few blinds to chip up.



ia2115 (5,105.00 in seat 2)
DON555 (2,940.00 in seat 4)
NineLions (2,388.00 in seat 5)
upip (1,135.00 in seat 6)
sulokki (890.00 in seat 7)
raggarn (2,542.00 in seat 10)

Dealer: NineLions
Small Blind: upip (100.00)
Big Blind: sulokki (200.00)

ninelions was dealt: 4d - Qs

raggarn Fold
ia2115 Fold
DON555 Fold
NineLions Raise (500.00) Weak hand, but unless they've got something I don't expect any action
upip Call (400.00)
sulokki Fold

Flop 4h - Kd - Kc

upip Bet (200.00) He has something?


What do you think of the blind steal attempt, and what do you do now that he's lead at this flop but I've paired the bottom card?
 
sk8rfrmvicecity

sk8rfrmvicecity

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hmmmmm . i guess i would have to have seen the play of them , but i mean i tend to always throw a bet out in im in position . i never really like to check down if im in first position . more of a tone setter see who calls and who raises . hell might even just pick up the damn pot entirely
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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This is usually a blocking bet with something like AJ IMO. I think you'll also occasionally see a small pair, and rarely a king (which will almost always ch-r).

As played, I stick him in.

As for the initial steal, I don't like it that much tbh. The ideal target stack is a 1500-2500 stack that's healthy enough to fold and still be in it, but small enough that a raise will commit him somewhat to the pot. If we get pushed, we've got to make a pot odds call with such a marginal hand, and we don't have much showdown value.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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I realized that this is maybe an issue in bet sizing too. Given the weak nature of the table (one player just went out playing with a stack of 1.5 BBs) I wasn't surprised by the call even though both the blinds should be push/folding. That's why there's so many players still left even though the blinds are at 100/200.

At a decent table, I should be prepared for one of the blinds to shove, and then I'd have to call 'cause their stacks are so low. I can't raise much less to give them more wiggle room.


Given that they should shove, maybe Q4 is too weak to be stealling with?
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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ChuckTs is correct about the stack sizes you want to steal from. This player is in the range that is perfect for a resteal (yes, he should have shoved over the top). I agree that something like AJ/AT that missed is making this bet. That being said, this player isn't folding his "big" hand here if you push.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Well I'd need to know a little more about the blinds and how likely they are to call, but I'd be shoving in this instance if they were weak enough.

I don't want to give them enough raising 'ability' to give them ideas about coming over the top; I want to just shove and use as much FE as I can.

If you were to punch this into an EV calculator it would probably say it was +EV (I might be wrong) if the blinds are tight enough, but I don't like these type of big-small hands for steals. With JTs or 89 we're rarely dominated as opposed to Q4 when we're often dominated by QK/AQ/etc.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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This player is in the range that is perfect for a resteal

I disagree; it's rarely a good idea to resteal with <10BBs because of the lack of FE. A 5BB stack is rarely if ever pushing someone out of a pot who's already raised.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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I disagree; it's rarely a good idea to resteal with <10BBs because of the lack of FE. A 5BB stack is rarely if ever pushing someone out of a pot who's already raised.

This seems like a spot where there is a lot of FE:
villain has just over 10 bbs and is attacking a middle stack who will be seriously hurt by a call, and has raised in steal position.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Doh. I just realized what Chuck said in the second part of his first post is what I posted in my second post.


There should be a shorthand for "as it turned out", or maybe I should just say "results":

I read his bet as a paired 4 and shoved gambling that he might have a weaker one. Turned out he had a K. As it goes in these levels, not a totally unexpected play by him. His way of building the pot gradually would be my guess.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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This seems like a spot where there is a lot of FE:
villain has just over 10 bbs and is attacking a middle stack who will be seriously hurt by a call, and has raised in steal position.

I think we're getting mixed up...villain has 1100 at 100/200 blinds. That's 5.5BBs...
 
NineLions

NineLions

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As for the initial steal, I don't like it that much tbh. The ideal target stack is a 1500-2500 stack that's healthy enough to fold and still be in it, but small enough that a raise will commit him somewhat to the pot. If we get pushed, we've got to make a pot odds call with such a marginal hand, and we don't have much showdown value.

A timely article by Gus Hansen about being a chip bully, including some discussion about what hands to have before pressuring the small stacks.


Online Poker at Full Tilt Poker - Poker Tips: Tips From The Pros: 19th October 2007
 
B

Bentheman87

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I think there are two things wrong with this play, first is the stack you are trying to steal from, and second is your hand. Like everyone else said, you don't want to try to bluff a desperate shortstack who is itching to get all his chips in the center. You also don't want to try to bluff a big stack who can feel comfortable looking you up. And your hand, queen 4 offsuit is such a marginal hand, the weakest queen I would try to steal with here would be queen 10 or maybe queen 9.
 
ratmantoo

ratmantoo

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Many thanks (once again) guys. Interesting topic and been involved with quite a few "captains" lately that have annihalated me:mad: and i wasn't sure of how to play them so i only played my strong hands and played them aggressively.

After reading this post and the article, I ended up at the same table (SNG STT) with the same villain and began calling and re raising with my "weaker hands" ie Q 9 , J 9 etc and this really frustrated him. Caught him a number of times playing Q 5 or even J 3. (J 9 a bit low???)
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

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There are no good options on the flop because the hand was misplayed pre-flop. I think the less worse option is to move-in on the flop.

The problem started pre-flop and is 2-fold:
  1. Q4 is a terrible hand to steal with from stacks that are about 5BB. Against a big stack, it is ok to play it wiht the intention to fold to a re-raise or release on the flop.
  2. The pre-flop bet is incorrect
More on sizing bets pre-flop:
When you bet to steal, you should know what you will do if the stack you are stealing from move in preflop(which is the correct move for short stacks, especially OOP).

You raised 2.5BB Let's say that is the normal raise amount for the table. Let's say that you are on average 40% dog when they move against you. If you work out the math, you will see that you must call any move-in by a stack up to 8BB. That means that it is BETTER for you to move-in in the first place to maximize FE and when called, you get to see all 5 cards. Not to mention that you don't have to make difficult decisions like the one you ended up with.

The general equation is as follows:
---------------------------------
Assumptions:
- We are on average 40% dog when called
- There are no antes

Let B be the bet you usually make expressed in big blinds.
Let X be the stack of the opponent you are stealing from.
Then if
X <= 3+2B
you should move in yourself to maximize FE.

(If anyone is interested, I can show you how I derived that)

Here are the most typical cases in tourneys:

B=2 Big Blinds ==> X = 7 Big Blinds
B=2.5 Big Blinds ==> X = 8 Big Blinds
B=3 Big Blinds ==> X = 9 Big Blinds

Since both blinds were abouit 5BB, you should have either not attempted a steal OR moved all in preflop. As bad as Q4 is, it is likely 40% dog on average. I would prefer small SC or Kx, though.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Let B be the bet you usually make expressed in big blinds.
Let X be the stack of the opponent you are stealing from.
Then if
X <= 3+2B
you should move in yourself to maximize FE.

(If anyone is interested, I can show you how I derived that)

Here are the most typical cases in tourneys:

B=2 Big Blinds ==> X = 7 Big Blinds
B=2.5 Big Blinds ==> X = 8 Big Blinds
B=3 Big Blinds ==> X = 9 Big Blinds


I would like to see the derivation if you don't mind. I realize that we should be varying our bet sizes based partially on the blinds stacks, but didn't know there was a nice little equation for it.

also, the <= means less than or equal too, right?
 
Cheetah

Cheetah

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I would like to see the derivation if you don't mind. I realize that we should be varying our bet sizes based partially on the blinds stacks, but didn't know there was a nice little equation for it.

also, the <= means less than or equal too, right?

Chuck, <= means less than or equal to.

:party:
CORRECTION!!! CORRECTION!!! CORRECTION!!!
----------------------------------------------
:party:
It turns out I made a mistake in the post above:( .
---------------------------------
| THE CORRECT FORMULAS ARE:
| -------------------------------
| X = 5B if the BB moves in
| X = 5B + 1.5 if the SB moves in
---------------------------------
:party:

Here is the derivation:

The pot is unopened and contains the blinds which is 1.5 big blinds. All units from now on are in big blinds.

You bet B. The pot is now 1.5 + B
The Big Blind goes all-in for his stack X. The pot now is 1.5 + B + X
You have to call 1 + X - B
So the pot odds are (1.5 + B + X)/(1 + X - B)
If you are 40% dog, your odds of losing are 60/40 = 3/2
So the maximum you can call is when pot odds equal the odds of losing, i.e.
(1.5 + B + X)/(1 + X - B) = 3/2
Manipulating the equation leads the following:
2(1.5 + B + X) = 3(1 + X - B)
3 + 2B + 2X = 3 + 3X -3B
2B + 2X = 3X -3B
5B + 2X = 3X
X = 5B for BB moving in
------

If the Small Blind moves in, then the pot is still (1.5B + B + X)
but you only have to call (X + 0.5 - B)
then the maximum to call at 40% dog is
(1.5B + B + X)/(X + 0.5 - B) = 3/2
2(1.5 + B + X) = 3(X + 0.5 - B)
3 + 2B + 2X = 3X + 1.5 -3B
1.5 + 2B + 2X = 3X -3B
1.5 + 5B + 2X = 3X
X = 5B + 1.5 for SB moving in
------------

Let us verify the first formula:

Say you have been raising 2.5 big blinds. The blinds are 100/200 and the BB has a stack of 2,500. You open-raise to 500 and the BB moves in for the remaining 2,500.

The pot is 100 + 200 + 500 + 2,500 = 3,300
You have to call 2,500 + 200 - 500 = 2,200
As you can see the pot odds are 3,300/2,200 = 3/2
so if you are greater than 40% to win, you must call.

Practical usage:
---------------

First note that in the example above, when the stack of the Big Blind is exactly 5 times your bet, it doesn't matter whether you call or fold since the EV=0. In tournaments, you can use these close decisions to manipulate your image and choose the action that is best. If your stack is not very big, obviously folding is preferred.

If the blinds have about 10BBs left, and you usually bet 3BB, then it is better to move in to maximize FE.

Here is an example:

Blinds are 100/200, BB has 2,000, you usually raise 3BB=600
According to the formula, X=5*600=3,000. Since the BBs stack is
2,000 < 3,000, you have +EV to call if the BB moves in. Let's verify it.

You open raise to 600 and BB re-raises all-in for 2,000
The pot is 100+200+600+2,000 = 2,900
You have to call 2,000 + 200 - 600 = 1,600
The pot odds are 2,900/1,600.
The required winning percentage to call is:

% to win = 1,600/(2,900+1,600) = 1,600/4,500 = 36%
Since we expect to win 40% of the time, it is an automatic call.

This post got quite a bit off topic. Perhaps it needs its own thread.:)
 
O

ol_sin

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this an extremely easy fold.

don't get caught up in blind steal attempts.

You tried to steal the blind, he obviously has something, get rid of it.

this guy has 1,135 before the flop. he calls 500, nearly half his stack, and now has 635. There is 1200 in the pot now, and he bets 200, he has 435 left.
why would he bet 1/3 of his stack into a pot that has 1/6 of what he bet? not to mention his smooth call before the flop of half his stack.

This SCREAMS good hand. at the very least, he can beat 4's

you've got 2,388, raise to 500 and now have 1,888.

so you've only got two options:

raise him all in for the rest of his chips and force him to risk his tournament life. if you're winning, great, if you're not, maybe you'll draw out on him. if you don't win, you'll end up with 1300 (not good at 100/200 blinds) and he'll have 2270.

or

fold your blind steal attempt and take the loss at 1,888. he'll be at 1,885.

since its pretty obvious you are behind, if you call, you'll have to draw out and you'll be risking going up against trip K's. your best hope is that he has a mid-high pocket pair, and you have 5 outs.

you gotta fold.
 
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