£20 NLHE MTT: Shoving range in this spot?

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BlueNowhere

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Live tourney so I don't have HH.

9 at table, pretty loose table. Blinds 500/1000 I haveabout 8.4K (starting stacks 10K, average about 18K) guy from CO with over 20K raises to 2.2K. Read on him, been opening a lot and stealing from LP (not with ATC but fairly wide I think), one of the more observant players and I think he doesn't call wide here. My image is very tight (limped 1 pot with AK (by accident) and raised UTG with AA but got no action in about 2 hours play). Should I jam ATC here?
 
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BlueNowhere

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Yea sorry, forgot to put that in. Yes I am in BB.
 
Guisquets

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If you're late position yeah i would...
The amount of times this has happend though, where i jam, i'll get called by the bloody big blind when i have jammed on the button, and he's sitting there with QQ or something!
.. where the original raiser then lays it down.

You just gotta' hope you haven't got unlucky by running into a big hand from someone in a later position!

... This may even be the one time he is legitimately raising with a good hand aswell! Haa. :/
 
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BlueNowhere

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If you're late position yeah i would...
The amount of times this has happend though, where i jam, i'll get called by the bloody big blind when i have jammed on the button, and he's sitting there with QQ or something!
.. where the original raiser then lays it down.

You just gotta' hope you haven't got unlucky by running into a big hand from someone in a later position!

... This may even be the one time he is legitimately raising with a good hand aswell! Haa. :/

Well the pot is 3700 and I can shove for 7400K he has to be good 32% of the time against someone who has played very tight thus far. I think I can fold out all weak aces, all Kx, maybe small PP and some crap he raises with. It doesn't matter if I run into a big hand occasionaly as I only need this to work 69% of the time to gain chips.

Should I be doing this only with hands that I'm going to have decent equity with or can I just jam ATC in this spot?
 
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baudib1

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If you think he knows what he's doing, presumably he's not opening super wide and is going to call most of the time unless he really thinks you are a super exploitalble nit. If you really think he's going to fold a ton I'd probably shove like 80% of hands (giving up stuff like 92o etc)

Thing in live tournaments is that the players are probably worse than micro mtts online and the BB will fold a lot if you jam the next hand.
 
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BlueNowhere

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If you think he knows what he's doing, presumably he's not opening super wide and is going to call most of the time unless he really thinks you are a super exploitalble nit. If you really think he's going to fold a ton I'd probably shove like 80% of hands (giving up stuff like 92o etc)

Thing in live tournaments is that the players are probably worse than micro mtts online and the BB will fold a lot if you jam the next hand.

Yea he's not opening any two but he's active from late position and opening fairly wide, I'm pretty sure he's just stealing alot of pots. He tries to take a lot of uncontested pots on turn as well. It was generally 4 to flop so I wasn't getting chance to steal as well as losing FE every orbit.

I got J3o in this spot and jammed over top of raiser. I had been inactive (not throguh choice, just not many playable spots) and the shove did spook him (although he called after about 2 mins with pocket 9's and I got lucky). Some of the older men looked at me quzzically when I flipped over my hand and I just said to them standard shove. Just wondered after if it was the correct play. My thinking was jam Jx, Qx, Kx, Ax, any PP, suited connecters, suited 1 gappers, suited 2 gappers and offsuit 1 gappers. Would that be a reasonable shoving range?
 
Poker Orifice

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If you think he knows what he's doing, presumably he's not opening super wide and is going to call most of the time unless he really thinks you are a super exploitalble nit. If you really think he's going to fold a ton I'd probably shove like 80% of hands (giving up stuff like 92o etc)

Thing in live tournaments is that the players are probably worse than micro mtts online and the BB will fold a lot if you jam the next hand.

Yea he's not opening any two but he's active from late position and opening fairly wide, I'm pretty sure he's just stealing alot of pots. He tries to take a lot of uncontested pots on turn as well. It was generally 4 to flop so I wasn't getting chance to steal as well as losing FE every orbit.

I got J3o in this spot and jammed over top of raiser. I had been inactive (not throguh choice, just not many playable spots) and the shove did spook him (although he called after about 2 mins with pocket 9's and I got lucky). Some of the older men looked at me quzzically when I flipped over my hand and I just said to them standard shove. Just wondered after if it was the correct play. My thinking was jam Jx, Qx, Kx, Ax, any PP, suited connecters, suited 1 gappers, suited 2 gappers and offsuit 1 gappers. Would that be a reasonable shoving range?
Question:
Is he going to be opening really wide (stealing) with shortstacks to his left, where he's priced in to call? (maybe (see underlined) if he thinks you're a huge nit).

For him to pause & ponder a call here in this spot w 99 has me thinkin'... that he's thinkin'.. that you're a huge nit. (I mean what's to think about?)
 
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baudib1

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Live tournament players are so random. 99 is a super-fist pump snap. You probably have to call with a good J-high

Actually I might just ship it pre depending on BTN/SB stacks.

but if he actually tanks with 99 I'd be happy shoving just about anything then (although not after showing down J3).
 
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BlueNowhere

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Live tournament players are so random. 99 is a super-fist pump snap. You probably have to call with a good J-high

Actually I might just ship it pre depending on BTN/SB stacks.

but if he actually tanks with 99 I'd be happy shoving just about anything then (although not after showing down J3).

Yea I snap-call 9's, couldn't believe what he almost folded when he showed them
 
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BlueNowhere

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Question:
Is he going to be opening really wide (stealing) with shortstacks to his left, where he's priced in to call? (maybe (see underlined) if he thinks you're a huge nit).

For him to pause & ponder a call here in this spot w 99 has me thinkin'... that he's thinkin'.. that you're a huge nit. (I mean what's to think about?)

He probably has me down as a nit. About 70 hands in I've limped once and raised once. Nowhere near a big enough sample size to categorize someone as a nit but if I was him I'd be thinking I was a nit. Truth be told except two mentiond hands I hadn't had a hand worth playing expecially since it's 10 on a table (to start with) and 70 hands is nothing.

I don't think he can call with most of his range that he opens with here. Also I don't think people look as closely at stack sizes and work out odds so I have more FE than I should.
 
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Wait I didnt read any of the rest of this but I just want to say that if he is as decent as you seem to describe he is almost never folding here.. so your shove needs to be solely for value, probably A10+ KJ+ QJ 2s+
 
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BlueNowhere

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Wait I didnt read any of the rest of this but I just want to say that if he is as decent as you seem to describe he is almost never folding here.. so your shove needs to be solely for value, probably A10+ KJ+ QJ 2s+

When I say decent it's relative to the rest of the field. I read his raise purely as a steal with a semi decent hand that I was pretty sure I could throw him off, unfortunately he was stronger than I'm imagined but I think I could fold out alot of his opening range so this shove doesn't need to be for value all of the time.
 
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imwatcher

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dude he is going to have what, almost 2:1 pot odds, he is hardly ever folding
 
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BlueNowhere

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Against somebody who has played like 2 out of 70 hand my range absolutey crushes his and he probably needs more like 3.5/1 to call with most hands he raises here. Obviously 9's he needs slightly less but he's still doing badly against my range and it's going to be a marginal call at best.

I think I can throw him off about 50% of hands he raises here which is why I shoved.
 
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Ffs he needs like 35% equity vs your range he is like.. always going to have that... if he is as good as you describe he isnt stealing super wide here, he is calling nearly 100%
 
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BlueNowhere

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As good as I described? I described him a relatively good, hardly impressive to be good when compared to the rest of the field. Also I think he has nowhere near 35% against my range and I think him thinking for 3 minutes with 9's shows jst how much of his range I'd fold out here.
 
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imwatcher

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Dude if we give you a range of A9s+ AJ+ KQ 7s+ (which is nittier than you should be shoving with 8bb) then ATC has about 31% equity.... he is clearly going to be around 35%+ equity with a more realistic opening range and a more realistic shoving range from you
 
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imwatcher

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it is so damn tilting that you make a thread supposedly for hand analysis and all you are hoping for is someone to confirm that you made a good shove when you didnt
 
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BlueNowhere

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it is so damn tilting that you make a thread supposedly for hand analysis and all you are hoping for is someone to confirm that you made a good shove when you didnt

I made a thread asking for a shoving range to see if my hand fell inside the shoving range. Purely so I could see if my hand fell inside that shoving range.

Of course I'm looking for people to say I made a good shove so I can vindicate my play. If people don't think I made a good shove I say why I thought it was a good shove and see what they think.
 
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dude he is going to have what, almost 2:1 pot odds, he is hardly ever folding
But 'DUDE'.. of course 'if' he's good he's never folding... but in this spot he almost folded 99 ( = he is not good).
 
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Wait I didnt read any of the rest of this but I just want to say that if he is as decent as you seem to describe he is almost never folding here.. so your shove needs to be solely for value, probably A10+ KJ+ QJ 2s+
maybe read the rest of it?
 
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imwatcher

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In orig post he describes him as good player, then alters his view on him as the thread progresses, its basically just resutls orientated, vs any even slightly decent player we can only shove for value here.
 
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