Pocket pair, one overcard flops, 2 others in pot.

  • Thread starter Dorkus Malorkus
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Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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This is a pretty standard situation, with one other player in this almost always needs a continuation bet, but out of position with 2 other players in what do you do here?

rasamataz is decent with loose/aggressive tendencies.
aisya is awful, even by $5 donk standards, my notes say "overvalues weak aces", "minraised from BB with AA preflop" and "minbet rivered nuts" fwiw. :)

fulltiltpoker Game #318912994: $5 + $0.50 Sit & Go (2069367), Table 1 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 16:47:21 ET - 2005/12/03
Seat 1: FAHQPHIL (1,900)
Seat 3: beachbum94 (2,095)
Seat 4: aisya (3,205)
Seat 5: JDsOlNo7 (1,105)
Seat 6: Qhr1s0 (1,865)
Seat 7: jjraider (1,200)
Seat 8: rasamataz (2,130)
JDsOlNo7 posts the small blind of 30
Qhr1s0 posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Qhr1s0 [Tc Th]
jjraider folds
rasamataz calls 60
FAHQPHIL folds
beachbum94 folds
aisya calls 60
JDsOlNo7 calls 30
Qhr1s0 raises to 240
rasamataz calls 180
aisya calls 180
JDsOlNo7 folds
*** FLOP *** [Kh 5d 8s]
Qhr1s0 ???
 
Tammy

Tammy

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I HATE this type of scenario, and I'm glad you brought it up, because I am sure I play these incorrectly! I would do one of two things: check the flop and see what my opponents do, OR place a bet to see where I stand. But most likely I will check. I'll be interested to see what others responses are to this scenario...
 
KillerKat

KillerKat

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If i was the one to raise preflop, I'll always put out a continuation bet even when out of position, to see where i stand. I dont know if this is right or wrong. Works for me most of the time, but gets me in big trouble other times.
 
titans4ever

titans4ever

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I am with KillerKat. You were the one to raise preflop. They don't know if you had KK, AK, or 10s. The only way to know is to bet it out.

You check and someone else goes in with a bet, then what? That is the real binding question. Are they bluffing or do the really have the K. You fire out a bet then you can at least know where you are.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Problem is, the pot is 780 and I have just over double that in front of me. Therefore wouldn't a continuation bet either (a) have to be for a small fraction of the pot that screams weakness and isn't going to push out any hands that I would want to push out, or (b) be basically comitting all my chips to the pot as I have over half my stack invested?
 
KillerKat

KillerKat

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What sort of table image did you have, were you caught with trying to steal any pots earlier?
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Only hand I'd showed down previously was AQs, board QJKKA (was a split pot, Mr. Overvalues Weak Aces had A3 or something stupid). I'd won a couple of other pots with continuation bets in position after missing flops.

Mind you, with a lot of the players at the $5s I think you're giving them too much credit if you consider your table image to be overly important. ;)
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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Let's say you bet: What hands are you realistically hoping will fold?

If they hold an A, Q or J, a (decent) bet will maybe make them fold, at least in the case of queen or jack. Would K3o fold?

What hands that are worse than yours (with a very small chance of improving to beat you) could you see calling that bet?

If you think they're both holding something like ace-high, then a push is good. I don't see a pair of kings folding here, unless maybe it's K2o. But if you're already ahead, a push depends on how badly you want to win the pot, and in this particular case, I think it's fairly borderline.

I'd probably check and see if either of them indicate strength. If they both check and an ace falls, you've (most certainly) lost the pot, if you hadn't already. If either of the have a king, you've already lost it and you're getting yourself in trouble by doing a continuation bet with a hand that has very slim chances of improving.

How would you have played KK with this flop? How about AA or AK?
 
KillerKat

KillerKat

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Ok i see your point FP, but by checking it here you are almost certainly not going to get a check off the guy who is loose aggresive. If its checked to him, hes going to bet out no matter what he has, and you have to fold.
 
Dennis C

Dennis C

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I agree with a lot of these responses especially KillerKat's. For the first time, I think I don't agree with FP. I think K and low kicker are not in this hand due to the pre-flop raise. I would assume the 2 in after the flop had either 2 high cards or a pocket pair. Now what I would do from here is bet just as much as I did pre-flop. Then as everyone else stated, you know where you stand. If you bet this and someone raises then you have a pretty good idea you're beat. If you bet and are called the other player could still be playing his pocket pair or holding an ace something. Then after 4th you might check to see if they try to take control.
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
Early in game and 1 of the 2 scariest flop cards came out. Yellow light flashes. I would probably check it, although in the heat of battle my instincts would probably take over and fire at it! You are probably beat at this point and the best case scenario it is checked around, you check and a blank or 10 falls on the turn. Caution and living to fight another hand is probably BEST.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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KillerKat said:
Ok i see your point FP, but by checking it here you are almost certainly not going to get a check off the guy who is loose aggresive. If its checked to him, hes going to bet out no matter what he has, and you have to fold.
Most likely, yeah. But by betting this flop into a field of two players, you're essentially saying "this flop helped me" (AK, KK) or "I have that beat" (AA). So if you're going to represent one of those three hands, then the question boils down to how you would play those three with this flop.

If you check, and the loose/aggressive player decides to bet, is the difference really that big from if you bet and he calls? Actually, look at it this way:

If you bet and he calls, you virtually guaranteed you're beaten (or he's chasing with A-high, but a well sized bet or a push should deal with that).

If you check and he bets, his range is a lot bigger. He could easily be betting A-high just to try to steal. If you want to play this flop, I'm suggesting that checking with the intention of pushing to a bet might be a viable way to do it. A checkraise screams "fear me, peasants!" a lot more than a continuation bet. :)

Are we worried about the donk in the middle at all? I have no real idea on where to place that player. The decent-but-with-loose-aggressive-tendencies player, I want to put on a suited connector because of the limping. Possibility that you're looking at a pair (which could well have turned set with this flop), but hard to say and if it's a low or medium pair, it's poorly played to cold-call that raise.

I want to rule out high pairs because of the lack of preflop raises (barring maybe AA and a tricky play). What about KT, K9 or KJs? They're trouble hands to play into a raise because they're so easily dominated, but are they completely out of the picture? What about KQs?

But, then again, I'm not sure I should give random players too much credit for hand selection. :p
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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F Paulsson said:
Are we worried about the donk in the middle at all? I have no real idea on where to place that player. The decent-but-with-loose-aggressive-tendencies player, I want to put on a suited connector because of the limping. Possibility that you're looking at a pair (which could well have turned set with this flop), but hard to say and if it's a low or medium pair, it's poorly played to cold-call that raise.

Worried about donk in the middle? Slightly. He'd most likely (min)raise preflop with AK/KQ/KJ and I'm pretty sure he would fold Kx, but not certain (if it was sooooted he'd may well call). He's called bets with nothing but Ace-high and no draws on the flop before so my fear is me betting, him calling and me having no idea whether I'm loooking at a set or Ace-high with over half my chips in the pot. I put him on the Ax he loves so much for now, with KT and any low pocket pair or suited connectors making up the rest of his range.

F Paulsson said:
If you check and he bets, his range is a lot bigger. He could easily be betting A-high just to try to steal. If you want to play this flop, I'm suggesting that checking with the intention of pushing to a bet might be a viable way to do it. A checkraise screams "fear me, peasants!" a lot more than a continuation bet.

This was one of the thoughts I had. In actuality, I check/folded to a smallish bet from the laggy guy and this seemed like a really weak thing to do.

*** FLOP *** [Kh 5d 8s]
Qhr1s0 checks
rasamataz bets 180
aisya folds
Qhr1s0 folds
 
diabloblanco

diabloblanco

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The check-fold to that small a raise was a little weak IMO. Not necessarily a terrible play, but maybe not strong enough. The guy limped then called a pretty nice sized raise pre-flop, its very possible that your tens are beat at this point, but with a pot that size another small bet is worth paying to see the turn. If it hits you, great. If not, you get the chance to see if he takes his foot off of the accelerator which will give you a little more information about his holdings. If he keeps firing into the pot he could have the Kings and you can get away from the hand having only lost an additional 3xBB which isn't a huge deal.

I would pay the 180, see the turn, and gather a little more information before I let my PP go in that situation.
 
Poo_Poo

Poo_Poo

Rock Star
i d maybe try to check raise to see where i am , usually a call or a reraise would mean he s got the king or something better .
But maybe the better strategy is to just call the bet , get the another card ( well its just 2 outs ) , checking again and see what he does .
 
X

xdmanx007

Legend
Check Raise= bad idea against weak players.... Actually let me rephrase TERRIBLE IDEA!!! Yes it a solid move against over aggressive players but don't waste your time or chips with a check raise in low stakes poker unless you are prepared to go all the way with it!

I doubt I would have folded to a tiny bet like that but small bets have a tendency to get me to fold simply because I generaly think this guy wants me to call. In most cases a weak bet generally means just that, your opponent has decided to wear his pretty pink panties to the table.......:eek: and calling then firing on the turn will pick up the pot.......
 
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