Playing the river $55 MTT 9Ts TPTK

[Irexes]

I'm not sure if this is going to contribute much to the sum of poker knowledge, but I see people making what I would call a mistake here a lot and we don't get to discuss the river much.

It's only half a dozen hands in and I've seen villain do nothing odd yet.

We get to the river without incident and when it's checked to me, do I bet or not. And much more importantly why?


***** Hand History for Game 6182070254 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny: 34660678 Level: 1 Blinds(20/40) - Wednesday, July 25, 16:06:22 ET 2007
Table $18K Gtd (1103673) Table #29 (real money)
Seat 9 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Roarkish ( 3,040 )
Seat 2: KbTzA ( 2,940 )
Seat 3: Schnubby74 ( 2,080 )
Seat 4: Mc__Tiltyson ( 3,280 )
Seat 5: winnerdoggy ( 3,700 )
Seat 6: Irexes ( 3,060 )
Seat 7: bossogbums ( 2,120 )
Seat 8: BeachHampe ( 3,120 )
Seat 9: randfish ( 3,000 )
Seat 10: EFC1878888 ( 4,060 )
Trny: 34660678 Level: 1
Blinds(20/40)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Irexes [ Tc 9c ]
KbTzA folds
Schnubby74 calls [40]
Mc__Tiltyson folds
winnerdoggy calls [40]
Irexes calls [40]
bossogbums folds
BeachHampe did not respond in time
BeachHampe folds
randfish folds
EFC1878888 calls [20]
Roarkish checks
** Dealing Flop ** [ 4h, 9d, 5h ]
EFC1878888 checks
Roarkish checks
Schnubby74 checks
winnerdoggy checks
Irexes bets [160]
EFC1878888 folds
Roarkish folds
Schnubby74 folds
winnerdoggy calls [160]
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5c ]
winnerdoggy checks
Irexes bets [300]
winnerdoggy calls [300]
** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
winnerdoggy checks
Irexes ??

 

[ChuckTs]

Definitely check behind for me. Busted draws are obviously not going to put any more money in, and the only hands that will call are hands that beat you IMO.

He's either a) trapping with a better hand, b) on a busted draw, or c) playing JT+ passively. A middle pair (77 etc) is also possible, but he probably won't call another bet with that. Any hands that call us (or raise) are those that have us beat.

 

[pezjb]

I would check. Only two things I could really put him on which is a flush draw or 9 with better kicker, which I think he would of raised post flop with. No 5 IMO, and no straight. Whats the outcome?

 

[Irexes]

Thanks chaps, won't comment for the minute.

While we're at it here's another one from the same tourney, different set up but same check ahead on the river, Villain is VPIP25% PRF12% AGG1.5 and has done nothing odd.

***** Hand History for Game 6182121255 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny: 34660678 Level: 2 Blinds(30/60) - Wednesday, July 25, 16:19:38 ET 2007
Table $18K Gtd (1103673) Table #29 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: Roarkish ( 3,120 )
Seat 2: KbTzA ( 4,510 )
Seat 4: Mc__Tiltyson ( 3,010 )
Seat 5: winnerdoggy ( 4,220 )
Seat 6: Irexes ( 2,340 )
Seat 7: bossogbums ( 1,300 )
Seat 8: BeachHampe ( 4,170 )
Seat 9: randfish ( 3,660 )
Seat 10: EFC1878888 ( 4,130 )
Seat 3: FreManDude ( 3,130 )
Trny: 34660678 Level: 2
Blinds(30/60)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Irexes [ Ah Kd ]
winnerdoggy folds
Irexes raises [160]
bossogbums folds
BeachHampe folds
randfish calls [160]
EFC1878888 folds
Roarkish folds
KbTzA folds
FreManDude folds
Mc__Tiltyson calls [100]
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3s, Td, 4c ]
Mc__Tiltyson bets [180]
Irexes calls [180]
randfish folds
** Dealing Turn ** [ Ks ]
Mc__Tiltyson checks
Irexes bets [350]
Mc__Tiltyson calls [350]
** Dealing River ** [ 2h ]
Mc__Tiltyson checks
Irexes ?

 

[ChuckTs]

Looks like he's trying to hold on to a weak pair or maybe pair + draw on the turn while scared of that king. 56 is possible if he's loose and confident enough to be calling with it (and position) PF.

I think this is closer, but I'll put out a very callable bet here most of the time; something we can get away from if he tosses in a check-raise. A middle pair or like AT might decide to see a showdown if we make it inviting enough.

 

[Irexes]

First one I did indeed check behind and he showed 99 for the boat.

Chuck said exactly what I feel that I'm not getting anyone to fold who beats me and I'm not getting anyone to call a bet I beat. Any check-raise and I have to fold.

Definitely check behind for me. Busted draws are obviously not going to put any more money in, and the only hands that will call are hands that beat you IMO.

He's either a) trapping with a better hand, b) on a busted draw, or c) playing JT+ passively. A middle pair (77 etc) is also possible, but he probably won't call another bet with that. Any hands that call us (or raise) are those that have us beat.

Second one is perhaps more interesting and again I agree with Chuck. It felt to me that he had hit the flop but not hard and was keen to take it there and then. Once this failed he was looking to get the hand over with as little further investmet as possible. His checks on the turn and river seem to confirm this. I did indeed make the largest bet I felt he would call (which was 600) and he did and showed 9To. I had put him squarely on Tx.

Seems to me there is clear difference between the two situations. Identifying the line between the two can both save chips and earn them and make the difference between building a decent stack and dwindling away into the danger zone. Probably nothing new to a lot of people but I see people betting the first and checking the second enough to wonder.

More generally I think that river play is sometimes neglected in terms of analysis in tournies because due to the stack and blind ratios of the standard tournies most of the action is decided by the turn (river action is often mechanical due to pot commitment). However early in tournies, the blind ratios can bring the river into play a bit more often.

 

[NineLions]

Second one is perhaps more interesting and again I agree with Chuck. It felt to me that he had hit the flop but not hard and was keen to take it there and then. Once this failed he was looking to get the hand over with as little further investmet as possible. His checks on the turn and river seem to confirm this. I did indeed make the largest bet I felt he would call (which was 600) and he did and showed 9To. I had put him squarely on Tx.

I'm assuming the turn bet was similarly designed as the river bet, to keep Tx in the hand?

 

[ChuckTs]

@ NL: Turn is for value and/or info. If he check-raises us, it's probably a set or KT or some other weird hand that's got us beat, and he's trying to trap exactly what we've got: AK. If we check behind...well I'm not really sure what he'll put us on, but betting so straight-forward when that king hit is probably going to fool him into thinking we don't have it.

@rex: Too true with the tourney tidbit (not seeing rivers too often). I've got to say that my turn-river play is beyond sub-par because of this. Seeing the river in turbo STTs playing the style I do is rare to say the least.

ty to JesusLederer for giving me my first tidbit about betting/checking behind on the river a few months back

...where the hell is that Chilean, nintendo-loving ass of his anyways

 

[Irexes]

Sort of Nine, as Chuck says (I'm typing that lot lately ) it's about info.

I want him to fold if he has nothing, reraise if he has me beat and call with a hand worse than mine. I don't want to get to the river with insufficient information to make a big decision if necessary. My bet means that he has to respond in a way that unless he's been disguising his holding from the get-go and is either terrible or brilliant (it's a fine line) I've got him pretty much pegged on a small range.

Chuck, the ten hour (well nine hour 58 minutes) deep stack tourney I played a couple of weeks back was a revelation to me. Hands still had so much mileage come the river it was amazing to contrast with "normal" structures. I wouldn't play them too often due to the ridiculous commitment but as a learning experience and opportunity to think some things through it was really valuable and I've rethought a few things as a result. Mainly about bet sizing relative to mine and my opponents stack on the turn.

 

[ChuckTs]

Yeah, it's a completely different game when stacks are that deep. That's probably why your so 'unfamiliar' with ring games.

I might take a peek at those deep stack tournies, but I rarely have enough time (or patience) to sit through one.

 

[Irexes]

Yeah, it's a completely different game when stacks are that deep. That's probably why your so 'unfamiliar' with ring games.

Definately. It's funny cause I was really comfortable in the DS MTT (2nd in the end without real incident) yet I get the collywobbles still in ring when whole stacks come into play and feel a bit at sea. I'm missing some concepts somewhere that would link the two.

 

[ChuckTs]

Maybe the fact that there's a finish line in tournies; survive and get aggressive at key times. Rings are one long game.

I dunno...tbh I still don't get ring games either, although I'm a lucksack and am like 100BBs/100hands in my last few sessions. Long-term I think I'm a big loser in side games.