P5s Open Analysis

[theskillzdatklls]

Hi, i just got destroyed in the p5s open, finished 28x. not happy, was the short stack the whole game and never got any JJ+ cards over 160 hands (excluding AKo).. anyway, outside advice on hands would be nice

one thing, total hands seen was 7% on total, my stats are as follows:
168 hands
BB = 5/21 = 23%
SB = 5/18 = 27%
OP = 2 / 129 = 1%
12 / 168 = 7%
showdown = 2/4
pots no showdown = 12

mostly i wonder if i played waaay to tight this game.. but it never felt right to play the hands either, i dont like multi-way pots w/ questionable pocket pairs in tournaments and i hate playing AJ / AQ in early position especially to earlier raises and even more so to high rated players raising in front of me.


correct preflop fold?

pokerstars Game #17980043291: Tournament #88446909, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/06/07 - 14:50:00 (ET)
Table '88446909 134' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Dolcetto (4285 in chips)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (1859 in chips)
Seat 3: RADON08 (1901 in chips)
Seat 4: wcb231 (1995 in chips)
Seat 5: nuts_shipit (1895 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: hit21hit (1920 in chips)
Seat 7: obscuredd (1940 in chips)
Seat 8: tk0711 (4275 in chips)
Seat 9: thepokerchic (2120 in chips)
obscuredd: posts small blind 15
tk0711: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to skllzdatklls [Jd Ah]
thepokerchic: folds
Dolcetto: raises 90 to 120
skllzdatklls: folds
RADON08: folds
wcb231: folds
nuts_shipit: folds
hit21hit: raises 240 to 360
obscuredd: folds
tk0711: folds
Dolcetto: raises 3925 to 4285 and is all-in
hit21hit: calls 1560 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (2365) returned to Dolcetto
*** FLOP *** [Kh 6c 5d]
*** TURN *** [Kh 6c 5d] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [Kh 6c 5d Qh] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dolcetto: shows [Ac Kd] (a pair of Kings)
hit21hit: shows [Th Ts] (a pair of Tens)
Dolcetto collected 3885 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3885 | Rake 0
Board [Kh 6c 5d Qh 4d]
Seat 1: Dolcetto showed [Ac Kd] and won (3885) with a pair of Kings
Seat 2: skllzdatklls folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: RADON08 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: wcb231 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: nuts_shipit folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: hit21hit (button) showed [Th Ts] and lost with a pair of Tens
Seat 7: obscuredd (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: tk0711 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: thepokerchic folded before Flop (didn't bet)


#2
PokerStars Game #17981262123: Tournament #88446909, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level V (75/150) - 2008/06/07 - 15:47:51 (ET)
Table '88446909 134' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Dolcetto (10760 in chips)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (2178 in chips)
Seat 3: cmalgee (765 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 4: liquidshoes (6407 in chips)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark (2743 in chips)
Seat 6: NBLOOSEMOOSE (1305 in chips)
Seat 7: obscuredd (1066 in chips)
Seat 8: tk0711 (7475 in chips)
Seat 9: TheGibbons (11275 in chips)
cmalgee: posts small blind 75
liquidshoes: posts big blind 150
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to skllzdatklls [Kd As]
ShakeyShark: raises 150 to 300
NBLOOSEMOOSE: folds
obscuredd: folds
tk0711: calls 300
TheGibbons: folds
Dolcetto: folds
skllzdatklls: raises 1878 to 2178 and is all-in
cmalgee: folds
liquidshoes: folds
ShakeyShark: folds
tk0711: folds
Uncalled bet (1878) returned to skllzdatklls
skllzdatklls collected 1125 from pot
skllzdatklls: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1125 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Dolcetto folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (button) collected (1125)
Seat 3: cmalgee (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: liquidshoes (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: ShakeyShark folded before Flop
Seat 6: NBLOOSEMOOSE folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: obscuredd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tk0711 folded before Flop
Seat 9: TheGibbons folded before Flop (didn't bet)

#3
PokerStars Game #17981478609: Tournament #88446909, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/06/07 - 15:58:23 (ET)
Table '88446909 134' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Dolcetto (13110 in chips)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (2703 in chips)
Seat 3: thecolonel71 (3405 in chips)
Seat 4: liquidshoes (6107 in chips)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark (3198 in chips)
Seat 6: Luckypizza (1660 in chips)
Seat 7: obscuredd (1982 in chips)
Seat 8: tk0711 (10999 in chips)
Seat 9: TheGibbons (10300 in chips)
skllzdatklls: posts small blind 100
thecolonel71: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to skllzdatklls [As Th]
liquidshoes: folds
ShakeyShark: folds
Luckypizza: folds
obscuredd: raises 1782 to 1982 and is all-in
tk0711: folds
TheGibbons: folds
Dolcetto: folds
skllzdatklls: folds
thecolonel71: folds
Uncalled bet (1782) returned to obscuredd
obscuredd collected 500 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 500 | Rake 0
Seat 1: Dolcetto (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: thecolonel71 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: liquidshoes folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Luckypizza folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: obscuredd collected (500)
Seat 8: tk0711 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: TheGibbons folded before Flop (didn't bet)

#4
okerStars Game #17981587038: Tournament #88446909, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/06/07 - 16:03:40 (ET)
Table '88446909 134' 9-max Seat #1 is the button
Seat 1: Dolcetto (11510 in chips)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (2403 in chips)
Seat 3: thecolonel71 (2805 in chips)
Seat 4: liquidshoes (5807 in chips)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark (3798 in chips)
Seat 6: Luckypizza (1660 in chips)
Seat 7: obscuredd (1982 in chips)
Seat 8: tk0711 (12499 in chips)
Seat 9: TheGibbons (11000 in chips)
skllzdatklls: posts small blind 100
thecolonel71: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to skllzdatklls [8s 8h]
liquidshoes: folds
ShakeyShark: folds
Luckypizza: folds
obscuredd: folds
tk0711: folds
TheGibbons: folds
Dolcetto: raises 400 to 600
skllzdatklls: calls 500
thecolonel71: folds
*** FLOP *** [2h Ac 6h]
skllzdatklls: checks
Dolcetto: checks
*** TURN *** [2h Ac 6h] [Kc]
skllzdatklls: bets 855
Dolcetto: folds
Uncalled bet (855) returned to skllzdatklls
skllzdatklls collected 1400 from pot
skllzdatklls: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1400 | Rake 0
Board [2h Ac 6h Kc]
Seat 1: Dolcetto (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (small blind) collected (1400)
Seat 3: thecolonel71 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: liquidshoes folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Luckypizza folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: obscuredd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tk0711 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: TheGibbons folded before Flop (didn't bet)


good preflop fold again? outcome was correct, but should i be doing this?
PokerStars Game #17981649297: Tournament #88446909, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/06/07 - 16:06:45 (ET)
Table '88446909 134' 9-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: Dolcetto (11310 in chips)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (3203 in chips)
Seat 3: alstoner (4075 in chips)
Seat 4: liquidshoes (5092 in chips)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark (3598 in chips)
Seat 6: Luckypizza (4680 in chips)
Seat 7: obscuredd (1782 in chips)
Seat 8: tk0711 (12499 in chips)
Seat 9: TheGibbons (11300 in chips)
obscuredd: posts small blind 100
tk0711: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to skllzdatklls [Qh As]
TheGibbons: folds
Dolcetto: raises 400 to 600
Luckypizza said, "was planning on blinding out then changeds my mind at the last minute"
skllzdatklls: folds
alstoner: folds
liquidshoes: folds
ShakeyShark: folds
Luckypizza: calls 600
obscuredd: raises 1182 to 1782 and is all-in
tk0711: folds
Dolcetto: raises 4618 to 6400
Luckypizza: calls 4080 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (1720) returned to Dolcetto
skllzdatklls said, "folded AQ.. what a mess, glad i did"
*** FLOP *** [4c 6c Jc]
*** TURN *** [4c 6c Jc] [Th]
skllzdatklls said, "sux for QQ"
*** RIVER *** [4c 6c Jc Th] [2s]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Dolcetto: shows [8c 8s] (a pair of Eights)
Luckypizza: shows [Qd Qs] (a pair of Queens)
Luckypizza collected 5796 from side pot
obscuredd: shows [Kc Kh] (a pair of Kings)
obscuredd collected 5546 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 11342 Main pot 5546. Side pot 5796. | Rake 0
Board [4c 6c Jc Th 2s]
Seat 1: Dolcetto showed [8c 8s] and lost with a pair of Eights
Seat 2: skllzdatklls folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: alstoner folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: liquidshoes folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Luckypizza (button) showed [Qd Qs] and won (5796) with a pair of Queens
Seat 7: obscuredd (small blind) showed [Kc Kh] and won (5546) with a pair of Kings
Seat 8: tk0711 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 9: TheGibbons folded before Flop (didn't bet)


PokerStars Game #17981765664: Tournament #88446909, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2008/06/07 - 16:12:23 (ET)
Table '88446909 134' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: wahoo284 (4242 in chips)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (2803 in chips)
Seat 3: alstoner (4400 in chips)
Seat 4: liquidshoes (4567 in chips)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark (3073 in chips)
Seat 6: Luckypizza (6496 in chips)
Seat 7: obscuredd (5396 in chips)
Seat 8: tk0711 (13224 in chips)
Seat 9: TheGibbons (17655 in chips)
wahoo284: posts the ante 25
skllzdatklls: posts the ante 25
alstoner: posts the ante 25
liquidshoes: posts the ante 25
ShakeyShark: posts the ante 25
Luckypizza: posts the ante 25
obscuredd: posts the ante 25
tk0711: posts the ante 25
TheGibbons: posts the ante 25
Luckypizza: posts small blind 125
obscuredd: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to skllzdatklls [Kc Qc]
tk0711: folds
TheGibbons: folds
wahoo284: folds
skllzdatklls: raises 351 to 601
alstoner: folds
liquidshoes: folds
ShakeyShark: raises 2447 to 3048 and is all-in
Luckypizza: folds
obscuredd: folds
skllzdatklls: folds
Uncalled bet (2447) returned to ShakeyShark
ShakeyShark collected 1802 from pot
ShakeyShark: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1802 | Rake 0
Seat 1: wahoo284 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls folded before Flop
Seat 3: alstoner folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: liquidshoes folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark (button) collected (1802)
Seat 6: Luckypizza (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: obscuredd (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: tk0711 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: TheGibbons folded before Flop (didn't bet)



this was the disaster - correct fold though or not?

PokerStars Game #17981853979: Tournament #88446909, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VII (125/250) - 2008/06/07 - 16:16:41 (ET)
Table '88446909 134' 9-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: wahoo284 (1765 in chips)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (4729 in chips)
Seat 3: alstoner (4350 in chips)
Seat 4: liquidshoes (4417 in chips)
Seat 5: ShakeyShark (4124 in chips)
Seat 6: Luckypizza (6221 in chips)
Seat 7: obscuredd (4871 in chips)
Seat 8: tk0711 (14399 in chips)
Seat 9: TheGibbons (16980 in chips)
wahoo284: posts the ante 25
skllzdatklls: posts the ante 25
alstoner: posts the ante 25
liquidshoes: posts the ante 25
ShakeyShark: posts the ante 25
Luckypizza: posts the ante 25
obscuredd: posts the ante 25
tk0711: posts the ante 25
TheGibbons: posts the ante 25
alstoner: posts small blind 125
liquidshoes: posts big blind 250
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to skllzdatklls [Th Tc]
ShakeyShark: folds
Luckypizza: folds
obscuredd: folds
tk0711: folds
TheGibbons: raises 500 to 750
wahoo284: folds
skllzdatklls: calls 750
alstoner: folds
liquidshoes: raises 3642 to 4392 and is all-in
TheGibbons: calls 3642
skllzdatklls: folds
*** FLOP *** [Kh Ac 3s]
*** TURN *** [Kh Ac 3s] [Kd]
*** RIVER *** [Kh Ac 3s Kd] [Jh]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
liquidshoes: shows [7d 7h] (two pair, Kings and Sevens)
TheGibbons: shows [9c 9h] (two pair, Kings and Nines)
skllzdatklls said, "F**K"
skllzdatklls said, "folded 1010"
TheGibbons collected 9884 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 9884 | Rake 0
Board [Kh Ac 3s Kd Jh]
Seat 1: wahoo284 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: skllzdatklls (button) folded before Flop
Seat 3: alstoner (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: liquidshoes (big blind) showed [7d 7h] and lost with two pair, Kings and Sevens
Seat 5: ShakeyShark folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Luckypizza folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: obscuredd folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: tk0711 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: TheGibbons showed [9c 9h] and won (9884) with two pair, Kings and Nines


then this was my last decent hand before i blinded out. terrible fold im guessing right?
PokerStars Game #17982128537: Tournament #88446909, $20+$2 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2008/06/07 - 16:30:28 (ET)
Table '88446909 49' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: SQQTED (3540 in chips)
Seat 2: becks911 (23908 in chips)
Seat 3: kevingrass (2715 in chips)
Seat 4: Sharkzilla1 (6435 in chips)
Seat 5: skllzdatklls (2024 in chips)
Seat 6: disruptor108 (3340 in chips)
Seat 7: orrreeeo` (12540 in chips)
Seat 8: Harvalicous (2736 in chips)
Seat 9: TheBurden (8850 in chips)
SQQTED: posts the ante 25
becks911: posts the ante 25
kevingrass: posts the ante 25
Sharkzilla1: posts the ante 25
skllzdatklls: posts the ante 25
disruptor108: posts the ante 25
orrreeeo`: posts the ante 25
Harvalicous: posts the ante 25
TheBurden: posts the ante 25
skllzdatklls: posts small blind 150
disruptor108: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to skllzdatklls [5h 5s]
orrreeeo`: folds
Harvalicous: folds
TheBurden: folds
SQQTED: folds
becks911: raises 425 to 725
kevingrass: folds
Sharkzilla1: calls 725
skllzdatklls: folds
disruptor108: folds
*** FLOP *** [5c 7s 6c]
becks911: checks
Sharkzilla1: checks
*** TURN *** [5c 7s 6c] [3s]
becks911: bets 811
Sharkzilla1: raises 4874 to 5685 and is all-in
becks911: folds
Uncalled bet (4874) returned to Sharkzilla1
Sharkzilla1 collected 3747 from pot
Sharkzilla1: doesn't show hand
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3747 | Rake 0
Board [5c 7s 6c 3s]
Seat 1: SQQTED folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: becks911 folded on the Turn
Seat 3: kevingrass folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Sharkzilla1 (button) collected (3747)
Seat 5: skllzdatklls (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: disruptor108 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 7: orrreeeo` folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: Harvalicous folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: TheBurden folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[vanquish]

standard on all of them afaik

 

[ChuckTs]

Yep, they all look pretty standard to me. Some of them are a little read-dependent, but playing them like you did is absolutely fine. I might 3-bet or shove the TT hand pf for example.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

the TT and 88 hands are usually shove pfs, rest are standard.

 

[blankoblanco]

88 is a clear shove pre, shove TT pre. also probably shove the KQs pre cause you only have 11 BBs with antes and i hate raise/folding 1/4 of my stack against AJ/22-JJ there

 

[theskillzdatklls]

ok, the TT - here is why I hate this situation

lets say, for sake of argument, if i had to guess preflop i'd guess i'm going against 77 and AK-Q-J, i'm probably at 40% to win there (guessing). how many 40%s can you win in a tournament to get to a final table? 1010 in a h-u all in is something, 3 way gets really dangerous.

I mean, lets say you are guaranteed AK against your 88-TT each time, 55% to win over extended periods of time in a tournament ... i just struggle with the idea of winning tournaments this way.

Limit late rounds i'm pretty good at, i can get to final tables handily.
In no-limit late game times, i tend to really have problems with semi-speculative hands like 77-1010 - is that bad, or do i just need to swallow the need of more mathematical certainty and go with it?

and just to drive my point into the ground, I did the CC $3 tournament the other day, had QQ in multiway, ended up getting KK + AA in the pot. Yesterday did JJ went against AA.

and those are higher pairs. in late stage tournaments where do you draw the line between shoving 77+ and not? .. can anyone help me with this idea if they understand what i mean?

 

[Dwilius]

Yes but how many times can you win 60% in a row. 40% to triple up would get you away from fold or nearly pot committed zone. If you win, maybe you can pick off some shortstacks and wait for good situation for all your chips. When you blind down and have to double up is when you force yourself to win race after race (I'm guilty of this) Anyway, I think the TT advice is to push before it got to the blinds and you faced 3way pot. Mp+ raises, you call button, big blind pushes.
I agree with combuboom even tho I hate QK allin.
What is p5s, unrelated what does FTW mean?

 

[vanquish]

the thing is, playing TT or mid pairs or w/e against overcards isn't always simply a coinflip. you can win plenty of pots without showdown (being confident that you are ahead), and get in spots postflop that will yield you > 50% equity return against overcards.

 

[blankoblanco]

or you let underpairs get away instead of busting to you preflop

in the 88 hand we're also out of position vs. an undefined range so gl having much improved equity playing it out with zero stack depth. it's the most clear shove of the 3 imo. the TT, whatever, artistic license, but i'd shove it because so many underpairs will stack off now but not after the flop.

edit: and also because we don't know where we're at when we get squeezed. doing this with a big pair is a lot better for that reason and also because obv the higher our pair is, the more flops there are where their range can hit a piece but where we'll still be ahead

 

[vanquish]

or you let underpairs get away instead of busting to you preflop

in the 88 hand we're also out of position vs. an undefined range so gl having much improved equity playing it out with zero stack depth. it's the most clear shove of the 3 imo. the TT, whatever, artistic license, but i'd shove it because so many underpairs will stack off now but not after the flop.

edit: and also because we don't know where we're at when we get squeezed. doing this with a big pair is a lot better for that reason and also because obv the higher our pair is, the more flops there are where their range can hit a piece but where we'll still be ahead

i was talking more to the crowd of "every mid pair is a coinflip situation when you play it" (as opposed to the specific TT HH which i sort of barely looked at) on a more general basis (as well as beyond shallow stacked tournament play). when you have mid pairs with deeper stacks in tournaments, and in ~100 BB stack ring games, you generally won't bust smaller pairs preflop (people are obv reluctant to get AIPF with small pairs, except at the micros and except idiots), and postflop play is where a lot of your edge comes from.

imo not enough people realize that you can comfortably play something like 88 in a raised pot on a K53 board without being afraid of "oh i've been outflopped because there's an overcard". or at least this is a conclusion that took me a while to realize myself. also with deeper stacks, playing mid pairs in raised pots postflop is easier than playing them in 3bet pots. again this mostly applies to ring games + deeper stacked tournament play. IME.

 

[theskillzdatklls]

ok, the 10-10 play..
I do feel that maybe shoving there to get fold equity probably had some value.. however, how smart is it to assume the blinds have nothing?