Overplay or standard

[Ianmacca99]

24 left in $20 turbo rebuy I'm 2nd in chips with around 28bb.
Blind level 25k/50k 3k ante EP opens to 100k MP calls hero on button with 9h9s.
EP has around 15bb MP similar
The chip leader is in the big blind.
I feel the play was to jam and pressure the others but the big blind tank calls it off with A10o for 85% of his chips and spikes an ace.
Do we feel I overplayed this by jamming and not 3betting? afterwards being results oriented I thought why the hell did you do that when you were comfortable with lots of shorter stacks

 

[fundiver199]

Seems fine enough to me. Just an unlucky outcome.

 

[NWPatriot]

It sounds like it was already a multi-way pot when you shoved: the EP open and an MP caller with the chip leader left to act. The BB was going to have tremendous pot odds to call and he could afford it, so it was likely to be a 4 player flop. The main question here is "how much fold equity do you have"? If the BB is never folding, then you have 0% fold equity. With no fold equity, your bet isn't doing any work for you.

99 is not that great a hand, and does not play especially well in a 4 way pot. It is guaranteed that there will be plenty of overcards on the board, so you are relying on your pair to survive.

Without knowing the ICM implications here, it is hard to say whether this was good or bad. In a tournament, I like to think more in terms of "is this the BEST use of my chips or not?", rather than just +EV or not. I also think tournaments require a set of Survival Thresholds for how much equity or EV we need to survive. Against 3 other players, 99 was only going to survive to the next hand 20% of the time. You probably could have picked a better spot for your chips.

Good luck and God bless.

 

[eugenedav]

Them meddling mid pairs are usually never good I would just call see the flop set mind check maybe or just fold to a bet if I see an ace or anything higher than my 99.

 

[Ianmacca99]

It sounds like it was already a multi-way pot when you shoved: the EP open and an MP caller with the chip leader left to act. The BB was going to have tremendous pot odds to call and he could afford it, so it was likely to be a 4 player flop. The main question here is "how much fold equity do you have"? If the BB is never folding, then you have 0% fold equity. With no fold equity, your bet isn't doing any work for you.

99 is not that great a hand, and does not play especially well in a 4 way pot. It is guaranteed that there will be plenty of overcards on the board, so you are relying on your pair to survive.

Without knowing the ICM implications here, it is hard to say whether this was good or bad. In a tournament, I like to think more in terms of "is this the BEST use of my chips or not?", rather than just +EV or not. I also think tournaments require a set of Survival Thresholds for how much equity or EV we need to survive. Against 3 other players, 99 was only going to survive to the next hand 20% of the time. You probably could have picked a better spot for your chips.

Good luck and God bless.

There was 300k in the middle with my 1.4m making it 1.7m he has to call 1.4m to win a pot 3.1m. pretty much even money maybe 5/4 those pot odds aren't superb Im not sure I'm calling A10 off there but maybe it was an overplay from me. I'm sure calling off 85% of your stack would generate lots of fold equity

 

[300HPGOD]

I dont think there is enough information here to determine how good or bad the play is. The three pieces of info I would want to know would be has the bubble burst (pressure you can apply will be greater on the smaller stacks if it has not burst yet), how is the EP player playing, what do you know about them, etc. and your thoughts on the BB chip leaders tendencies, style, call rate, motivation to gamble, etc.

With it being a turbo the EP min raise range off of 15 BBs should be tighter as they should be more willing to jam knowing the blinds are increasing soon. How many times can we expect them to raise fold in a turbo off of 15 BBs (I dont know the answer without knowing the player but you should have a guess of that anyway). Their min raise range compared to their jam range could be high end like JJ+, AQ suited plus. Thats a tight range yes but what is their VPIP range to begin with EP 15 BBs? It shouldnt be much looser than 88+, A10 plus. If we then feel that is loosest they can be (without knowing anything about the player) then I dont think they will fold to us often especially since our move looks like a squeeze and the jam by us looks weaker than a 3 bet would. So if you can range them tightly and dont expect a fold from them then I think you can call to set mine here.

Then comes to the chip leader and how have they been playing? Are they a gambling type that would put it in with an A10 type hand that you already mentioned? If you are feeling yes then you are ahead of that but do we want to flip for it all being in second place already? That would be your decision on how you much you value a monster stack if you were to win.

What Im getting at is I dont think an answer to this can be given without knowing those things and that also means you should not be making a move like this unless you have an idea to the answers to these questions before you make the move.

 

[Ianmacca99]

I dont think there is enough information here to determine how good or bad the play is. The three pieces of info I would want to know would be has the bubble burst (pressure you can apply will be greater on the smaller stacks if it has not burst yet), how is the EP player playing, what do you know about them, etc. and your thoughts on the BB chip leaders tendencies, style, call rate, motivation to gamble, etc.

With it being a turbo the EP min raise range off of 15 BBs should be tighter as they should be more willing to jam knowing the blinds are increasing soon. How many times can we expect them to raise fold in a turbo off of 15 BBs (I dont know the answer without knowing the player but you should have a guess of that anyway). Their min raise range compared to their jam range could be high end like JJ+, AQ suited plus. Thats a tight range yes but what is their VPIP range to begin with EP 15 BBs? It shouldnt be much looser than 88+, A10 plus. If we then feel that is loosest they can be (without knowing anything about the player) then I dont think they will fold to us often especially since our move looks like a squeeze and the jam by us looks weaker than a 3 bet would. So if you can range them tightly and dont expect a fold from them then I think you can call to set mine here.

Then comes to the chip leader and how have they been playing? Are they a gambling type that would put it in with an A10 type hand that you already mentioned? If you are feeling yes then you are ahead of that but do we want to flip for it all being in second place already? That would be your decision on how you much you value a monster stack if you were to win.

What Im getting at is I dont think an answer to this can be given without knowing those things and that also means you should not be making a move like this unless you have an idea to the answers to these questions before you make the move.

The money bubble had burst with next jump at 15.
EP and Mp had folded previously to jams from other players after opening. The chip leader had called wide in a number of spots but against players who had much less.
I do think this was a bit of a punt but I thought I had enough fold equity to bully the middling stacks and didn't expect to get called off the bb for all his chips almost unless he had it. I was just thinking of taking down 300k uncontested

 

[eetenor]

The money bubble had burst with next jump at 15.
EP and Mp had folded previously to jams from other players after opening. The chip leader had called wide in a number of spots but against players who had much less.
I do think this was a bit of a punt but I thought I had enough fold equity to bully the middling stacks and didn't expect to get called off the bb for all his chips almost unless he had it. I was just thinking of taking down 300k uncontested

Your action was correct based on the data you shared. In a turbo we need to take advantage of spots like this.

We will not succeed all the time when we act on situational spots but this is one of those spots where you were going for the win and it is fine to do so.

You could not know the BB would call as you were targeting the first two players-that is why poker can be so frustrating.

Hope this helps

 

[WickedFRoST]

24 left in $20 turbo rebuy I'm 2nd in chips with around 28bb.
Blind level 25k/50k 3k ante EP opens to 100k MP calls hero on button with 9h9s.
EP has around 15bb MP similar
The chip leader is in the big blind.
I feel the play was to jam and pressure the others but the big blind tank calls it off with A10o for 85% of his chips and spikes an ace.
Do we feel I overplayed this by jamming and not 3betting? afterwards being results oriented I thought why the hell did you do that when you were comfortable with lots of shorter stacks

Shoving 99 here is definitely a standard play, so don't be result-oriented, you made no mistake there. That said, you also need to be aware of how you play your entire range in this spot. If you shove 99 here, you should also do the same with AQ+, AJs, TT,JJ,QQ,KK.

In this particular case, your opponent on BB made a really loose call with ATo, I do not know what he was thinking while tanking, its a clear fold with his hand, even if he knows somehow you do not have a monster hand (let's assume he has a read on you), he still has to worry about the initial raiser who opened from EP.

 

[fundiver199]

If the BB is never folding, then you have 0% fold equity. With no fold equity, your bet isn't doing any work for you.

But why would BB never fold, when he was not yet involved in the action and facing a very large jam for 85% of his chips? Even AT has a very loose and frankly bad call by him. And yeah if we know, we have calling stations behind us, we should tighten up a bit. But most likely Hero did not have this information, and it just sucks for Hero, that this player was bad enough to commit ICM-suicide by calling with AT.

99 is not that great a hand, and does not play especially well in a 4 way pot.

True but this was a jam not a call. Action went EP minraise, MP call, Hero jam, BB call, fold, fold. Most of the time everyone will fold here, and Hero pick up a very nice pot for a good risk-reward. And the second most common outcome is EP call, everyone else fold, and Hero play a 2-way all-in with decent equity and an overlay from MP plus the blinds and antes.

 

[samircyber9]

your actions was correct

 

[dallam]

That was definitely the right outplay from you. In a turbo game, that low on blinds you as a big stack can punish this action (small bets and making multiway pot) by going all-in, and put them in a tournament-life situation. So closing down the action with 99 is fine, also if someone call us off is fine even if we loose, closing the action for the blinds were worthy enough to make this shove here, and we have a relatively strong hand to be faced off here. And your notes were telling that maybe both of them 'll fold which is free money for us.

However calling off with A10o is ridiculous. Your range includes every premium hands and yeah few low pockets but A10o is gonna chase a lot. Not even mentioning that this player just skipped the whole ICM-steps and making the biggest mistak he can at this point - going possible multiway pots against 2nd biggest chip.

So my notes would include that he is the type of player who calls us with any good-looking two such as every pocket, every suited (78s, QJo etc), every Ax. Put it in other words, someone who can be outplayed easily, making profit from easily, but not going all-in pre if we not have the absolut winner hands, rather outplay on the other stages.

Very-very bad luck, but good game...