Over playing AK

[calicard]

Okay once again what would you have done. A little background engineer60 the original raiser was a chronic raiser and I was pretty sure he had nothing solid the other player the second raiser I knew nothing about. This was the first hand on the FT. I could have easily folded no skin off my back but I chose to reraise all my chips. Good idea or not whats your opinion? I did have the option of just calling preflop but that was for half my stack. I really think my only two viable options were to either fold or shove?

Hand#28129FCC76000812 - $0.25 NL Hold'em - R&A T10472566 -- CASH -- $0.25 + $0.1 -- 10 Max -- Table 11 -- 400/2000/4000 NL Hold'em -- 2011/12/17 - 13:03:59
Dealer: Seat 6
Seat 1: strelok223 (53,768 in chips)
Seat 2: HLK610 (114,629 in chips)
Seat 3: nickostar (30,316 in chips)
Seat 4: Engineer60 (214,723 in chips)
Seat 5: NIGHT_poker_ (36,612 in chips)
Seat 6: Beliyd1986 (23,504 in chips)
Seat 7: dana1478 (73,514 in chips)
Seat 8: DocHolidday (74,196 in chips)
Seat 9: montecarlo86 (15,753 in chips)
Seat 10: HoneyBrown (43,985 in chips)
strelok223: posts ante of 400
HLK610: posts ante of 400
nickostar: posts ante of 400
Engineer60: posts ante of 400
NIGHT_poker_: posts ante of 400
Beliyd1986: posts ante of 400
dana1478: posts ante of 400
DocHolidday: posts ante of 400
montecarlo86: posts ante of 400
HoneyBrown: posts ante of 400
dana1478: posts small blind 2,000
DocHolidday: posts big blind 4,000
Dealt to DocHolidday [Ac,Ks]
montecarlo86: folds
HoneyBrown: folds
strelok223: folds
HLK610: folds
nickostar: folds
Engineer60: raises to 8,000
NIGHT_poker_: folds
Beliyd1986: folds
dana1478: raises to 32,000
DocHolidday: is all in 69,796
Engineer60: folds
dana1478: is all in 41,114
DocHolidday: returns uncalled bet 682
dana1478: shows [Kh Kc]
DocHolidday: shows [Ac Ks]
*** FLOP *** [9c,6c,Qs]
*** TURN *** [7s]
*** RIVER *** [2s]
***SHOW DOWN***
dana1478 wins 158,228 with Pair of Kings

 

[nitulbhatia]

its a tricky spot AK is a good hand, however KK is more value in this spot, thats only if u knew he had KK, it really depends on the flop which this time didnt have an A for u

 

[baudib1]

Don't post results in hand histories. Results don't matter and seeing results can create biased feedback.

also use a converter.

About 99% of the time with AK I'd be pretty excited to get it in with an 18-BB stack but in this case I would fold:

1. You didn't mention payout structure but I assume it's typical of turbo MTTs and is top heavy. This, while you should probably get this in with 12 left, at the Final Table with a bunch of micro stacks, it is correct to play exceptionally tight here especially if the action to you is likely to involve someone else being all-in if you fold.

2. If positions were reversed, i.e. the "chronic raiser" (you say it like it's a bad thing) were the 3-bettor, I'd be pretty happy to get it in.

3. I hope you weren't suggesting you could call and fold on a bad flop. In this type of spot where you are faced with a bet that commits you and you'd be first to act after the flop, you should do a stop-n-go, i.e. calling and donk-shoving any flop.

 

[calicard]

Good info

Don't post results in hand histories. Results don't matter and seeing results can create biased feedback.

also use a converter.

About 99% of the time with AK I'd be pretty excited to get it in with an 18-BB stack but in this case I would fold:

1. You didn't mention payout structure but I assume it's typical of turbo MTTs and is top heavy. This, while you should probably get this in with 12 left, at the Final Table with a bunch of micro stacks, it is correct to play exceptionally tight here especially if the action to you is likely to involve someone else being all-in if you fold.

2. If positions were reversed, i.e. the "chronic raiser" (you say it like it's a bad thing) were the 3-bettor, I'd be pretty happy to get it in.

3. I hope you weren't suggesting you could call and fold on a bad flop. In this type of spot where you are faced with a bet that commits you and you'd be first to act after the flop, you should do a stop-n-go, i.e. calling and donk-shoving any flop.

I like the part where I should probably not post results. I also like your stop n go move I use it a lot when I'm short stack It obviously would not have worked in this situation but if the raiser had AK with me it might have or any small pair as the Q flopped . I also like where you analyzed the pay out structure you were correct in saying 10th place was in no way what I wanted to achieve here and with numerous small stacks on the table I could have basically folded every hand and gotten 5th or better. I usually wait for position and going against smaller stacks on a FT. no chance of elimination shoving against a guy with 15,000 chips
Great advice
Thank You

 

[kidkvno1]

How long was he at your table ??
AK is over played alot of the time, it's a starting hand and not a made hand.
His reraise should of told you that he had a monster.

 

[calicard]

It was the first hand

How long was he at your table ??
AK is over played alot of the time, it's a starting hand and not a made hand.
His reraise should of told you that he had a monster.

We had all just been moved to the final table and it was the very first hand. I usually open up the other table when it gets down to 2 tables but I was playing in 2 other games so I didn't do it. I had no idea if he was solid player or not. The more I think about it the more I think I should have layed it down. The half his stack raise was enough to say I have AA or KK.

 

[dlam]

I was playing a 1-2 live cash game with a similiar situation. I had AK unsuited in the co position...it was limped to me . I rasied to 4X BB ...$12 ...the dealer position player called...the SB reraised to $32.....everyone folded to me...I thought about 4betting but I justed sat down and didnt know how any of the players. I had $300 behind so did all the other players. I decided to call the 3bet..To me surprise the dealer position player also called. So three to the flop...flop comes K 2 9 (two cards are clubs).
The SB acts first and checks....I bet out $60 into a $99 dollar pot. The dealer behind me folds..........tcomes back to the SB he startes counting chips and check-raise me total $160 .......my turn......I fold.
What do you think? I just sat down and didnt know any players.....I not sure what I could have done differently.

 

[BlueNowhere]

If you didn't get this all in pre you'd have played it wrong. As long as people seem to spaz out with Ax it's profitable to get AK all in pre.

 

[BlueNowhere]

We had all just been moved to the final table and it was the very first hand. I usually open up the other table when it gets down to 2 tables but I was playing in 2 other games so I didn't do it. I had no idea if he was solid player or not. The more I think about it the more I think I should have layed it down. The half his stack raise was enough to say I have AA or KK.

No it wasn't. In fact if he only turns up with AA or KK in this spot he's playing badly. Also you have a blocker to both AA and KK, only 6 combos are ahead of you. It's an obvious shove and it's not even close.

 

[Weee3eee]

Looking at your hand. It is definitely a shove. I think you played it well. Just unfortunate that you faced KK. Most likely you would have been ahead anyway. The range to beat AK is very small for it to beat. You were short stacked so it was a good play.

 

[LaserCats]

AK? shove it...

 

[baudib1]

No it wasn't. In fact if he only turns up with AA or KK in this spot he's playing badly. Also you have a blocker to both AA and KK, only 6 combos are ahead of you. It's an obvious shove and it's not even close.

it's a fold, $.25 players do not have balanced 3-bet ranges. If he had shoved I'd call.

 

[Tammy]

Don't post results in hand histories. Results don't matter and seeing results can create biased feedback.

also use a converter.

This, plus if you want individual hands analyzed, that's what the Tournament Hand Analysis is for. We have a hand converter here: https://www.cardschat.com/hand-converter.php

 

[Weee3eee]

OOps, srry fold. My bad, Can't multitable websites.

AK? shove it...

Ha... sorry for my misinformation. I guess I need to read closer to what I was sending to. I am a tournament poker edge script and thought I was in that thread. I agree, definately a fold. If it was MTT, it would be a much different situation.

My apologies, I will make sure I am on the right website. I guess I can't "multitable" very well when it comes to websites.

 

[Tammy]

Ha... sorry for my misinformation. I guess I need to read closer to what I was sending to. I am a tournament poker edge script and thought I was in that thread. I agree, definately a fold. If it was MTT, it would be a much different situation.

My apologies, I will make sure I am on the right website. I guess I can't "multitable" very well when it comes to websites.

I don't think LaserCats was referring to your post, since your previous post does talk about the hand in this thread.

 

[XXXDIRTYDOGXXX]

You all just start final table is that right? And you have a feel that CL is raising a lot but now a 3-bet from SB that you have no info on and they put in half there stack? I would think long and hard but I wouldn't want to be first to leave the table. He's going all in no matter what falls so that tells me AA-KK and he's hoping to double up. Any other hand AQ,TT-QQ he would shove from the get go and not want a caller. With AA-KK you are begging to get some action and there is 18K in the pot all ready so that's pretty much a min bet for them. With AQ, TT-QQ you shove and still beg but for them to fold or if they give you action then it's to hold up.
Think about it what hands are they min betting half their stack with?
It's a fold.

 

[NascarFanSS]

I think in this position you made the move most people would make. First few hands of the final table you will usually see some aggressive plays and ak on the bb in this spot is great. I think pre-final table you would have needed to fold but as played I think you made the right move.

 

[BlueNowhere]

it's a fold, $.25 players do not have balanced 3-bet ranges. If he had shoved I'd call.

They don't understand how they've balanced it but it is still balanced. The average $0.25 player had a wide enough range here to make this an easy shove.

 

[XXXDIRTYDOGXXX]

I would still ask what hands is he putting half his stack in with? The only way he would get a "call" is by someone with AA-KK, any other good hand and you would be shoving (like with AK) and thats what he wants. 99% of the button pushing droolers are gone so you are pretty much hoping he's the 1%.

 

[BlueNowhere]

I would still ask what hands is he putting half his stack in with? The only way he would get a "call" is by someone with AA-KK, any other good hand and you would be shoving (like with AK) and thats what he wants. 99% of the button pushing droolers are gone so you are pretty much hoping he's the 1%.

Q9o is plausible at these stakes. Ask yourself why he's playing a $0.25 game. Also it's a re-buy so a fair few droolers will have built a stack. Also its not exactly hard to build a stack at these stakes so even if you get HU at final table I'd still expect players to be lolbad.

 

[baudib1]

They don't understand how they've balanced it but it is still balanced. The average $0.25 player had a wide enough range here to make this an easy shove.

I disagree with this strongly. Check your DB for $5 or less BI mtts and sort for 3-bets that are less than all-in after the 100/200 levels. It's going to be QQ+ a huge percentage of the time.

 

[BlueNowhere]

I would but my database went funny and I lost all data. With a blocker to AA and KK so not many combos you only need them to have AQ/AJ some of the time to make this a profitable shove. Plus in a MTT you know you're going to have to flip for stacks at some point and with blocker to AA/KK this is as good a time as any.

 

[baudib1]

He's going to have AQ/AJ less than 5% of the time IMO. We have blockers to those, too.

 

[BlueNowhere]

Yea but we have big blockers to AA/KK. still 12 combos of AQ and 12 of AJ. Also think your figures are massively off. I've played a $0.55 BI tourney most nights since I've started poker and it is way higher than 5% of the time AJ/AQ shows up. Also you can throw some random crap in that people have spazzed out with as well as a few lower PP, not just QQ+. I think we easily have enough equity to shove. People at these BI are not good players and do not think about what they are doing for the most.

 

[baudib1]

yeah I agree they're bad players which means their ranges are so narrow they might as well tell you what they have. Fold AK/JJ in this spot.