OK, tried being aggressive and...

K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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pokerstars Game #15112600240: Tournament #76589766, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2008/02/06 - 22:29:55 (ET)
Table '76589766 1' 10-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: iceman.net (595 in chips)
Seat 2: prowl_owl (2265 in chips)
Seat 3: 09kKahneFan (1100 in chips)
Seat 4: DMoskowitz (2250 in chips)
Seat 6: leprincepur2 (3170 in chips)
Seat 7: Mikkiemarie (2285 in chips)
Seat 8: PoquePro (960 in chips)
Seat 9: ALFISHPRO (925 in chips)
Seat 10: dantheeman (1450 in chips)
PoquePro: posts small blind 50
ALFISHPRO: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 09kKahneFan [:ac4: :5h4:]
PoquePro said, "ok"
dantheeman: folds
iceman.net: folds
prowl_owl: folds
09kKahneFan: calls 100
DMoskowitz: raises 100 to 200
leprincepur2: folds
Mikkiemarie: calls 200
PoquePro: calls 150
ALFISHPRO: calls 100
09kKahneFan: calls 100
*** FLOP *** [:5c4: :7d4: :2d4:]
PoquePro: checks
ALFISHPRO: checks
09kKahneFan: bets 500
Pot: $1000 - 2 checks to me with 1 to go, figured I'd stab with middle pair and A kicker with pretty harmless board. Little did I know I was ahead and being called by below... until... river
DMoskowitz: folds
Mikkiemarie: calls 500
PoquePro: folds
ALFISHPRO: raises 225 to 725 and is all-in
09kKahneFan: calls 225
Mikkiemarie: calls 225
*** TURN *** [5c 7d 2d] [:4s4:]
09kKahneFan: bets 175 and is all-in
Mikkiemarie: calls 175
*** RIVER *** [5c 7d 2d 4s] [:8s4:]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
09kKahneFan: shows [:ac4: :5h4:] (a pair of Fives)
Mikkiemarie: shows [:as4: :jh4:] (high card Ace) <-- hope and a prayer?
09kKahneFan collected 350 from side pot
ALFISHPRO: shows [:8d4: :9s4:] (a pair of Eights) <-- gut shot is worth $500 raise?
ALFISHPRO collected 3175 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 3525 Main pot 3175. Side pot 350. | Rake 0
Board [5c 7d 2d 4s 8s]
Seat 1: iceman.net folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: prowl_owl folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: 09kKahneFan showed [Ac 5h] and won (350) with a pair of Fives
Seat 4: DMoskowitz folded on the Flop
Seat 6: leprincepur2 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Mikkiemarie (button) showed [As Jh] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 8: PoquePro (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 9: ALFISHPRO (big blind) showed [8d 9s] and won (3175) with a pair of Eights
Seat 10: dantheeman folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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You should have been aggresive after folding that trash preflop. Why even try to limp here? You'll be in early position with a horrible A. What do you really expect to flop that you can win with here?
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

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Ouch. Limping from MP with A5o is horrible. Going with WVHB on this one, fold PF. The rest of the hand plays out standard, but I really think you never should have been involved in this hand.

This wasn't you being more aggressive as much as it was you bing more loose. Remember, loose and agressive are two different things. Aggressive is in relation to your betting, not what hands you play. Loose is playing A5o from MP.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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And especially limping 1/11 of your stack. You get huge pot odds to call the minraise, but that's a result of the first decision.

Then 5/9 of the rest of your stack on the flop with middle pair; I would fold, but if you've decided to bet I think you have to shove.
 
aliengenius

aliengenius

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Half pot bet weak lead into preflop raiser and huge field with middle pair does not equal "aggression" it equals suicide. Your results oriented analysis leads you to believe this is a "bad beat", but what would you have said if player A turned over TT, and player B turned over 87s ?

As noted, open limping out of position w A5o is so beyond terrible it's mind boggling.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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I'm imagining you, with no real justification or reasoning, just deciding "Hey I'm going to be aggressive next hand!" before the hand has even been dealt.

Poker doesn't work like that.

Fold > Shove > Limp preflop. Calling off such a large portion of your stack with A5o is bad, and if, as it seems, you are destined to stack off with a flopped middle pair it's even worse.

Given preflop, c/f flop - middle pair into four players is not likely to be good, and given stacks you don't have a great deal of fold equity.

You're right, the others played their hands pretty horribly, but you don't get any better at poker by giggling/ranting (delete as applicable) at horrible plays.
 
NuRelic

NuRelic

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I'd do another walk through, but it's a lot easier to simply say, "What they said." Even if you want to play it LAG, there's a lot of problems Post-Flop that should make you slow down.
 
dj11

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Try either a fold or raise attitude. Never limp except on the BB or when holding AA. This actually takes some practice to do comfortably, so I suggest you visit the play money tables for a few days till you get it right. If you get into the higher stakes play money games you can more closely approximate real game play. The idea being to learn solid agro technique and timing.

This is not to suggest that you would always play raise or fold , but rather to get it into your very fabric that the hand is either really worth playing, or it isn't. Simple but painfully true.

Got to agree, running with A5, middle pair was not a good solid play.

FWIW (not much I imagine) I've played a few 25NL tables and if forced to compare it to other tables it might most closely approximate a 10K buy in play-money table.
 
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K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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Try either a fold or raise attitude...

This is something I've gotten away from and need to get back to. I saw someone on here, and I'm sure it's been said elsewhere, who said "if it's not worth a raise, it's not worth it to play." Not saying you have to raise, but if someone raises, would you play it. I need to get back to that.

I guess I was just thinking "I'm going to steal this pot" before the hand was dealt because I would normally not play an A5o. Even if it hits a str8, a 5-6 could've (easily) been played and they would get me as well. Or, if AxA would've come out, I probably would've been eaten by Mikk.



Gotta' say, y'all are awesome. Thank you very much for the input.
 
NuRelic

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Well, if nothing else I've gotta say, "You've got a great attitude!" I haven't been here long, but in the time I have been here I've see you get raked over the coals for your play multiple time and by multiple members. And each time, you remain polite and curious and take the criticism the way its meant, as constructive. This is how you become a good player through a Forum.

There's a trial by fire that everyone goes through that when they build their approach to the game, but looking for and taking advice through Forums like this can be very instrumental and you seem to really get that. Only advice I'd give you is to take everyone's advice (including mine) with a grain of salt and see what works best for you. No one style of play fits all players. Look at Daniel Negreanu, Gavin Smith and Dan Harrington; no one style would effectively fit them, yet they are all very profitable and I'd bet your already getting that and well on your way. Kudos man!
 
K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

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I learned a long time ago you can't take anything on a message board to heart when it comes to criticism. Being that everything is in b&w, you can't see a wink and a nod that may be behind the words. Plus, if I played like crap... then it helps to be told so. Mistakes are a lesson learned and people of this forum have no problem pointing out the "lessons learned" :deal: :D
 
zachvac

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I learned a long time ago you can't take anything on a message board to heart when it comes to criticism. Being that everything is in b&w, you can't see a wink and a nod that may be behind the words. Plus, if I played like crap... then it helps to be told so. Mistakes are a lesson learned and people of this forum have no problem pointing out the "lessons learned" :deal: :D

With this approach you will definitely get better. Even the pros realize they make mistakes, and for someone to think they are the best or even worse "good enough" (no such thing in my book), will never get them anywhere. Why do you think even A-Rod has his own hitting coach? Brady's got a QB coach? Are they just telling them "you're doing fine, you're the greatest"? No, they're telling them what they're doing wrong and trying to get them better. I see too many people who think they're great at poker and don't need any other opinions from anyone. While that's fine if you're just playing for fun, if you truly want to work and get better, this attitude will get you far in everything in life, not just poker.

Although I agree this hand was pretty poorly played, if you can see and work to understand why it is a bad play and why it will lose you money in the long run (which you seem to be doing), you will become a much better player.

You seem to be utilizing CC to the max, congrats and keep it up :)
 
Jack Daniels

Jack Daniels

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Not saying you have to raise, but if someone raises, would you play it. I need to get back to that.
This is going directly back to Harrington's explanation of the "gap" concept. The idea that you must have a much stronger hand to call a raise than you need to open raise. A5o is an example of that. If it is folded around to me in the CO I can justify (in certain circumstances) open raising with A5o. On the flipside, if there is a raiser in front of me and I was on the button with A5o, I would almost never flat call that raise. A5 isn't strong anymore in that situation. I would either need to fold (in most cases) or reraise (in very rare cases and only for good reasons).

And I agree with the others...keep coming back for more. You obv know the input is all well intentioned, so keep using it and improving. Good luck.
 
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