Not sure if I made a bad lay down or not here

jromeo024

jromeo024

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Another live poker story same night as my strght flush. I am up to about 450 off 100 buy in. I am catching all sorts of hands at this table even when i fold 45 or 83 i am missing sets and boats. So I decide to loosen up and call a raise with 84 of spades. the flop is 10-6-7 rainbow one spade. Everyone checks to the button. He bets 25 into a 25 pot. Now I've noticed this guy really only bets with good to better hands and was the original raiser. My best read says he has a pair higher than the board. After quite a bit of deliberation I decide to fold my double gut draw, considering the bet and the pot and pot odds. Of course like an idiot I rabit hunt to see my five hit the turn. What I want to know is with the situation if I have pot odds to make that call or if I made the right lay down whether or not i hit the draw.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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well first off...i think that you should have folded preflop - sure you said you were getting lucky, but when you start to change your game like that, thats when your results change in a bad way (dont ever start calling garbage if you see that your garbage is hitting ie when you fold, just play your normal game)
but aside from that, i think it depends on whether or not he will pay you off.
usually double belly busters have great implied odds because they're so deceptive, so I think you have to figure out how much you think he would call on the turn/river if you hit and factor that in to your implied odds.

these are the types of hands you dont want to get involved with PF because you sometimes get attached to them on the flop
 
t1riel

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Gutshot draws are expensive to chase. Your odds are better if you have a inside straight draw. It was a good laydown. You shouldn't have played that hand in the first place. You wouldn't be in these situations in the first place. If you going to play a hand like that, bluff.
 
ChuckTs

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*its not a gutshot, t1riel, it's a double gutshot or a double belly buster - a 5 or a 9 will give him the straight
so the same odds as an open ender, but way more deceptive and has way bigger implied odds

but i agree - dump the hand PF
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Pot odds no, implied odds most probably (if villain has a big stack).
 
joosebuck

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calling with a coordinated board like that would have raised a flag to a cautious player like that, and after the 5 i guarantee you would get 0 chips from him.
 
joosebuck

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also, id rather make a 'bad' laydown than a bad call *any* day.
 
robwhufc

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joosebuck said:
also, id rather make a 'bad' laydown than a bad call *any* day.
No, that's the wrong way round. It's much more expensive long term to fold winning hands, than it is to call losing ones.

jrome, as Dorkus said, this is an implied odds call, a Doyle Brunson special. Though with players behind you yet to act? I'm not sure. Chuck was right, fold pre-flop (though i'm sure you know this really ;)).
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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t1riel said:
Gutshot draws are expensive to chase. Your odds are better if you have a inside straight draw. .
Gutshot Draw is an inside straight draw isn't it?
 
robwhufc

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joosebuck said:
calling with a coordinated board like that would have raised a flag to a cautious player like that, and after the 5 i guarantee you would get 0 chips from him.
And dont agree with this either (sorry! Joose). Player for example has AA, he's going to fold to someone betting on a 10, 6, 7, 5 rainbow board? Who is going to put an opponent on 8,4? Answer, no-one.
 
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jay88931

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Pot odds, def not. You're getting 2:1 on your money, and you'll likely only get to see one card (5.25:1 shot). Once he suspects a draw, he's prob all in if no scare cards hit.

Implied odds? As usual, it depends on the player and his situation.

You need two things to make "chasing implied odds" profitable. An opponent with lots of chips and an opponent with a willingness to commit most of them with a pair.

However, there are probably better spots to chase implied odds than this one. With players left behind you, someone could easily have been slowplaying a set or a made straight (89) and be re-raising here...
 
joosebuck

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just because you're getting implied odds doesnt mean you can play any two cards. AA > 83o for a reason.
 
joosebuck

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especially when he said the player only bets with good/made hands, you cant chase a straight only getting 2:1 on your money. sorry, i fold here unless it's mid-late stages of a tourney and we are the 1&2 chipstacks.
 
joosebuck

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robwhufc said:
No, that's the wrong way round. It's much more expensive long term to fold winning hands, than it is to call losing ones.

jrome, as Dorkus said, this is an implied odds call, a Doyle Brunson special. Though with players behind you yet to act? I'm not sure. Chuck was right, fold pre-flop (though i'm sure you know this really ;)).

folding a double gutshot only getting 2:1 on your money will not lose you money in the long run.
 
ChuckTs

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what he means, joose is PF is a sure fold
but now that he's already in the hand, if the implied odds are good enough (which they definitely will be if he has AA), then a call might be in order
 
joosebuck

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a solid player will not bet off all his chips with only an overpair, with so many possible hands beating him.

edit: on the later streets.
 
robwhufc

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joosebuck said:
folding a double gutshot only getting 2:1 on your money will not lose you money in the long run.
so it's not a "bad" laydown is it?
 
joosebuck

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never said it was, was only quoting him bro
 
jromeo024

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Thanks guys some good points. No need to get snippy though. I understand where everyone is coming from, and for something like $15 I call in a second for one card, but a pot bet I didn't feel it was worth it. My biggest mistake was rabbit hunting, would have been alot better for me not to know. If there is one thing I have learned by playing these last four years is you can't win if all you do is fold, but you will definetly lose if you call with the worse hand.
 
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colin_147

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I think he knows he should have folded preflop, that why he said at the start he was varying his play a bit

There is a very small amount in the pot and you have a double gutshot straight and a backdoor flush draw.

If you are going to vary your play a bit, then once you hit the flop you have to play it through, otherwise there is no point in calling preflop

I would be playing this hand
 
P

pokerbrat0582

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Chasing draws only costs you money. You need to switch up your play so people cant get a good read on you but chasing isnt worth it.
 
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