No matter what I made the right move?

aloevera

aloevera

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No matter what! I made the right move?

Yes the damn 3$ rebuy at stars I swear this game is going to have the death of me! 4hrs later I got to 261rst but can't help but know I could have went further! 30$ cost me 12.30$

Would you have called??


pokerstars Game #14780588835: Tournament #74499126, $3.00+$0.30 Hold'em No Limit - Level XV (1500/3000) - 2008/01/24 - 00:06:28 (ET)
Table '74499126 170' 9-max Seat #7 is the button
Seat 1: ChazCraft (29910 in chips)
Seat 2: whiteone101 (157014 in chips)
Seat 3: gillyk14 (150587 in chips)
Seat 4: atnabmada (38958 in chips)
Seat 5: mikcha (67717 in chips)
Seat 6: aces monkey (9390 in chips)
Seat 7: aloevera (62250 in chips)
Seat 8: roy_ivey85 (186673 in chips)
Seat 9: waygrater1 (81461 in chips)
ChazCraft: posts the ante 300
whiteone101: posts the ante 300
gillyk14: posts the ante 300
atnabmada: posts the ante 300
mikcha: posts the ante 300
aces monkey: posts the ante 300
aloevera: posts the ante 300
roy_ivey85: posts the ante 300
waygrater1: posts the ante 300
roy_ivey85: posts small blind 1500
waygrater1: posts big blind 3000
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to aloevera [Kh Ad]
ChazCraft: folds
whiteone101: folds
gillyk14: folds
atnabmada: folds
mikcha: folds
aces monkey has timed out
aces monkey: folds
aces monkey is sitting out
aces monkey has returned
aloevera: raises 9000 to 12000
roy_ivey85: raises 174373 to 186373 and is all-in
waygrater1: folds
aloevera: calls 49950 and is all-in
*** FLOP *** [Jh 4c 3s]
*** TURN *** [Jh 4c 3s] 9♣
*** RIVER *** [Jh 4c 3s 9c] Q♠
*** SHOW DOWN ***
roy_ivey85: shows [8c 8h] (a pair of Eights)
aloevera: shows [Kh Ad] (high card Ace)
roy_ivey85 collected 129600 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 129600 | Rake 0
Board [Jh 4c 3s 9c Qs]
Seat 1: ChazCraft folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: whiteone101 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: gillyk14 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: atnabmada folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: mikcha folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: aces monkey folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: aloevera (button) showed [Kh Ad] and lost with high card Ace
Seat 8: roy_ivey85 (small blind) showed [8c 8h] and won (129600) with a pair of Eights
Seat 9: waygrater1 (big blind) folded before Flop
 
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burton_boy

burton_boy

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I'm not so sure you had to call in this situation. You had chips left to play with should you fold and with an all in re-raise you have to figure he has a pp, or possibly AK. I would rather be the one with a made hand, AK always looks great but doesn't guarantee results.
 
blankoblanco

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I'm not so sure you had to call in this situation. You had chips left to play with should you fold and with an all in re-raise you have to figure he has a pp, or possibly AK. I would rather be the one with a made hand, AK always looks great but doesn't guarantee results.

folding here would be awful. it's button vs. SB. aloe had 20 BBs, getting like 1.75:1 with AK. this is a fistpump call, you have to get all-in here
 
aloevera

aloevera

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I'm not so sure you had to call in this situation. You had chips left to play with should you fold and with an all in re-raise you have to figure he has a pp, or possibly AK. I would rather be the one with a made hand, AK always looks great but doesn't guarantee results.

You do realize I'm also on the button and it should be a snap call vs no matter what pr I think he has other than AA?

I'm waiting for the troops to come and yell at me lmao:D Hey guys i'm trying:eek:
 
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OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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You've also got a very difficult stack size - M is a bit over 8, you're almost approaching the stage where you can just open-shove the hand. If you're playing the hand out normally, you'd certainly figure to have all your chips in the middle by the end anyway.

What was your plan for the hand when you raised initially? Hope to just steal the blinds, shove on the flop... ?
 
aloevera

aloevera

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folding here would be awful. it's button vs. SB. aloe had 20 BBs, getting like 1.75:1 with AK. this is a fistpump call, you have to get all-in here


You just picked my spirits up so basically your saying good call and was Unlucky?? If so thx because I feel that if I would have folded that I would have regretted it the rest of the game :)
 
aloevera

aloevera

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You've also got a very difficult stack size - M is a bit over 8, you're almost approaching the stage where you can just open-shove the hand. If you're playing the hand out normally, you'd certainly figure to have all your chips in the middle by the end anyway.

What was your plan for the hand when you raised initially? Hope to just steal the blinds, shove on the flop... ?

I would have done my usual 3x or 4x blind raise as taught to me by a fellow CC'er:) He may have re raised me but considering the situation would have went all in at that point anyhow!
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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I would have done my usual 3x or 4x blind raise as taught to me by a fellow CC'er:) He may have re raised me but considering the situation would have went all in at that point anyhow!

Cool.

I think with this stack size, it pays to think a bit ahead. For example: "I'm going to raise this, and if I get called I'm going to shove anything but the most scary of flops", or "I'm going to raise this, hope to steal the blinds and call any funny business because the players in the blinds are LAGs".

The reason in this case being that a "usual" raise of 3-4BB actually represents about 20% of your stack. If someone goes over the top of you, you're going to have a hard time folding (as you discovered). With a deeper stack, you'd usually have the option of getting away from the hand if you were re-raised.

What do people think of open shoving here?
 
burton_boy

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Well God. Thanks for making me feel stupid. lol. Heres my thinking though, in a tournament you can't buy back in so I would rather get my money in in a better spot were I am a big favorite. I don't really like to flip for my tournament life. If this was a cash game it would be a different story and i would make the call almost every time. Is this bad thinking, or maybe just me being a little tight with my tourney chips? Also, another little habbit of mine I guess, I would rather go all in with AK then call an all in that way I have a chance to win without having to catch, does that make sense?
 
aloevera

aloevera

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Cool.

I think with this stack size, it pays to think a bit ahead. For example: "I'm going to raise this, and if I get called I'm going to shove anything but the most scary of flops", or "I'm going to raise this, hope to steal the blinds and call any funny business because the players in the blinds are LAGs".

The reason in this case being that a "usual" raise of 3-4BB actually represents about 20% of your stack. If someone goes over the top of you, you're going to have a hard time folding (as you discovered). With a deeper stack, you'd usually have the option of getting away from the hand if you were re-raised.

What do people think of open shoving here?

Open shoving 62K IMO would just make everyone fold, wouldn't it?? But I would have gotten the blinds and still in the game! I don't think BB here would have called me! So do you think my 3x-4x raise here was too weak??

Well God. Thanks for making me feel stupid. lol. Heres my thinking though, in a tournament you can't buy back in so I would rather get my money in in a better spot were I am a big favorite. I don't really like to flip for my tournament life. If this was a cash game it would be a different story and i would make the call almost every time. Is this bad thinking, or maybe just me being a little tight with my tourney chips? Also, another little habbit of mine I guess, I would rather go all in with AK then call an all in that way I have a chance to win without having to catch, does that make sense?

I thought I was the stupid one and sorry if I/we made you feel that way:eek:

There is nothing wrong with being tight with your tourney chips as I do it all the time, I'm not sure tho what the difference would be if this was a cash game or tourney, would it not have the same result?

And I see your point about being the aggressive one here and the one to let him make the decision not me making it!

I guess my thinking is he was CL as well and he was not as strong as he was portraying to be I knew he had pp or Ax and I felt at that moment it was a right move.

Looking back at this I'm kicking myself for calling, but at the same time I still think I would have been kicking myself for not!:)
 
OzExorcist

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Open shoving 62K IMO would just make everyone fold, wouldn't it?? But I would have gotten the blinds and still in the game! I don't think BB here would have called me! So do you think my 3x-4x raise here was too weak??

It's not that I think it was weak, it's just that you don't have enough chips left behind to maneuver with... so you're basically going to get all-in on the flop no matter what, or call the bet if someone shoves over you.

Which is why I'm thinking maybe open-shoving would've been the better move here.
 
jaymfc

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I been reading so many AK posts , I'm getting confused lol , don't see how you could fold it after betting , it should win and you knew that so all your money is in with the best chance.

don't want to hijack your thread but more 411 on AK that everyone will find useful in rex's post $22 mtt , he folded it and most agreed it was the right move.(in that case )
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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don't want to hijack your thread but more 411 on AK that everyone will find useful in rex's post $22 mtt , he folded it and most agreed it was the right move.(in that case )

That was a very different case though - AK in the big blind, against a tight opponent who'd made an over-large raise and had only shown down premium hands. The stacks were also deeper.
 
B

Bentheman87

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OzExorcist I read that thread also and agreed with the fold. But here the situation is way different. His M here is 8.6, once you're M drops below 10 you should be willing to race. After the small blind's shove if topic creator was getting 1.75:1 pot odds, and he would be only a 1.2:1 dog against any pair QQ or lower, so folding would be a big mistake unless you were sure you were up against AA or KK.
 
OzExorcist

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Erm... yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I'm saying (and what others are saying here too)
 
aliengenius

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4x bb initial raise = oblivious to stack sizes and no plan for the hand.

Stop playing on rote and start thinking about these situations instead of making "standard" plays/raises in tournaments everyone!

As it went down, I don't have a problem with the call, but you sort of trapped yourself into playing for your tournament here. You are putting yourself in a tough spot: what if he had just called? Now there is over 8x bb in pot, and you have only 16-17x bb left-- the pot now represents a HUGE increase to your stack size percentage wise. What kind of flops are you prepared to c-bet? How much can you afford to bet if you miss? What if he leads into you?! These are all questions you have to be prepared to answer BEFORE you make that first raise.
 
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baconn

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nothing wrong here, you just didn't win the race which happens. but shove was the right move
 
S

SHRK2TH

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Alien--all good points----thinking beyond the first step----enlighten me with answers to some of those questions you posed. What play doesn't get you trapped and yet gets the best value preflop.....thanks. Signing on to this sight is better than all the books I've read
 
zachvac

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4x bb initial raise = oblivious to stack sizes and no plan for the hand.

Stop playing on rote and start thinking about these situations instead of making "standard" plays/raises in tournaments everyone!

As it went down, I don't have a problem with the call, but you sort of trapped yourself into playing for your tournament here. You are putting yourself in a tough spot: what if he had just called? Now there is over 8x bb in pot, and you have only 16-17x bb left-- the pot now represents a HUGE increase to your stack size percentage wise. What kind of flops are you prepared to c-bet? How much can you afford to bet if you miss? What if he leads into you?! These are all questions you have to be prepared to answer BEFORE you make that first raise.

You should listen to this guy. He knows what he's talking about ;). I'm not sure if I'd shove this or not, you're not too short-stacked yet, but as played this is a call. There's a shot you're up against AQ, AJ, or even just A-rag, and then you're a huge favorite. And as long as they don't have AA or KK (against KK you even still have 3 outs) you're flipping. I think your stack is small enough that you definitely should be willing to get all your chips in with AK in this situation. You just lost a coin flip. Happens to everyone oh about 50% of the time :D.
 
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