$ NL HE MTT: !!did I do the right thing folding a SET ???

[ratbat615]

Game

Hold'em

Game Format

No Limit

Table Format

MTT

Freeroll

1. Freeroll

Currency

$

pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - 50/100 - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

G0930 (UTG): 2,722 (27 bb)
Tilt_Release (UTG+1): 8,648 (86 bb)
ratbat615 (MP): 2,340 (23 bb)
Gallarado777 (MP+1): 7,663 (77 bb)
Mootso (CO): 3,170 (32 bb)
billibooo (BU): 3,555 (36 bb)
bgmDK9 (SB): 3,445 (34 bb)
moula64 (BB): 4,402 (44 bb)

Pre-Flop: (150) Hero (ratbat615) is MP with 3♣ 3♠
2 players fold, ratbat615 (MP) raises to 200, 3 players fold, bgmDK9 (SB) calls 150, moula64 (BB) calls 100

Flop: (600) 6♦ 2♠ 3♦ (3 players)
bgmDK9 (SB) checks, moula64 (BB) checks, ratbat615 (MP) bets 300, bgmDK9 (SB) folds, moula64 (BB) calls 300

Turn: (1,200) A♦ (2 players)
moula64 (BB) checks, ratbat615 (MP) bets 600, moula64 (BB) calls 600

River: (2,400) K♦ (2 players)
moula64 (BB) bets 2,400, ratbat615 (MP) folds

Total pot: 2,400
moula64 (BB) wins 2,400

Pre: I picked up pocket 33 in mp with 23 bbs so I just min raise to see what the other players do .both the blinds call.

Flop: 6d 3s 2d so I hit my set it goes check check so I noticed that the board is wet with flush draws and straight draws , 45 is a straight. So maybe 🤔 just shove. But I think 💭 this might be negative ev cause I would leave value out there so I bet half pot and the sb folds and the bb calls .

Turn: comes Ad now three Diamonds 💎 the Villain 🦹‍♀️ checks so now I could do some pot control and check but what are the hands 🙌 that the bb would have? With 44 bbs pre don’t know how villain 🦹‍♀️ plays but could definitely have suited cards which makes sense with the call 📞 on the flop . Anyway I bet half pot and the villain 🦹‍♀️ calls .

River: Kd so now we have 4 diamonds 💎 and the board did not pair now this is we’re the red flags 🚩 go off. I think 🤔 the villain 🦹‍♀️ bets enough to put me all in. I don’t know 🤷‍♀️ guys what do you think 🤔????

Question: do you think 🤔 I made the right decision?? Thank you 🙏 for your comments.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
With 23BB I actually prefer to just open fold the smallest pairs like 33. The reason is, you are to deep to make a profitable open jam, and if you min-raise, like you did, you dont want to call a 3-bet from any of the opponents behind. And even if someone just call, 33 dont play well postflop with shallow stacks.

Flop
Flopping a set can always make up for preflop mistakes. Betting here is of course fine, and not going to go into sizing, because I dont think, its all that important here.

Turn
You could be behind to a flush now, but its also possible, someone just improved to two pair. So I dont think, this card is a bad, as it might look, and betting again is fine. If you get raised, you will need to get it in and just hope, you are ahead, or that the board will pair on the river.

River
This is clearly not the card or action you were hoping for, and now your hand is solely a bluff catcher. The opponent bet full pot, but actually you are the effective stack, so its only half pot for you to call, meaning you only need to be good 1 in 4 times. The fact, you have a set, hardly even matter, because he is most likely not turning two pair into a bluff. He is representing a good flush like Qd or Jd, and its kind of difficult to see, how he can even have that, unless he already had a flush on the turn. But its also difficult to see, what he can arrive with here, that completely lack showdown value and has to bluff. So I am ok letting it ok, but I would also not mind calling from time to time in spots like this, just to get a feel for, what the population is your games are doing this with.

 

[ratbat615]

Preflop
With 23BB I actually prefer to just open fold the smallest pairs like 33. The reason is, you are to deep to make a profitable open jam, and if you min-raise, like you did, you dont want to call a 3-bet from any of the opponents behind. And even if someone just call, 33 dont play well postflop with shallow stacks.

Flop
Flopping a set can always make up for preflop mistakes. Betting here is of course fine, and not going to go into sizing, because I dont think, its all that important here.

Turn
You could be behind to a flush now, but its also possible, someone just improved to two pair. So I dont think, this card is a bad, as it might look, and betting again is fine. If you get raised, you will need to get it in and just hope, you are ahead, or that the board will pair on the river.

River
This is clearly not the card or action you were hoping for, and now your hand is solely a bluff catcher. The opponent bet full pot, but actually you are the effective stack, so its only half pot for you to call, meaning you only need to be good 1 in 4 times. The fact, you have a set, hardly even matter, because he is most likely not turning two pair into a bluff. He is representing a good flush like Qd or Jd, and its kind of difficult to see, how he can even have that, unless he already had a flush on the turn. But its also difficult to see, what he can arrive with here, that completely lack showdown value and has to bluff. So I am ok letting it ok, but I would also not mind calling from time to time in spots like this, just to get a feel for, what the population is your games are doing this with.

Thank you 🙏 for replying your right just fold pre with just 23 bbs very helpful love ❤️.

 

[300HPGOD]

Pre: In total agreement with Fundiver that these hands need to be folded pre flop for the reasons he states.

Flop: This is where I diagree with the above. I think bet sizing is very important here because of what we should be planning to do for the rest of this hand. We shouldnt be in this hand to begin with but if we are starting with 23 BBs and flop a set then I am not looking to fold and thinking then about the best way to get the chips in the middle. If we go too small here then we cant jam turn without being a massive overbet to the pot. If we bet something like 400 here then we have 1740 behind and 1400 in the pot assuming one caller. That is an overbet jam for turn yes, but it isnt 2x overbet or anything super large like that and when its that close to 1 to 1 then it makes more sense (at least I think it would to villain) to jam since any bet would commit us to the pot anyway and therefore they might call off lighter. Even the 300 sizing you make it makes it 1800 behind and a pot of 1200 which is a doable jam turn of course but it would look better being closer to 1 to 1.

Turn: I would not have preferred another diamond but I do like the ace as Ax is the most common hand villains will play. So I already established that I am not folding so I would just get it in here even though we could be up against a flush. Any other size bet I would make here I feel would commit myself and I dont want 1 diamond hands seeing the river without fully paying for it. Of course this hand plays so much differently deep but with the stack we have I am going with this right now right or wrong. I understand my jam here is a bet where we only really get called when we are beat outside some small range of hands but being as short as we are you have to be more willing to take risk and go with it. I suppose we could also, as mentioned above, bet some amount and then call off raises but I would not be folding river then even with a bad card like what came. Just too much in the middle starting with too small a stack so that is another reason why I just go turn and kind of hope we are good.

Good hand to bring up because you can save a lot of money in these spots where you are short stacked by avoiding opening small pocket pairs and taking that away from this hand alone will help immensely going forward.

 

[eetenor]

PokerStars, Hold'em No Limit - 50/100 - 8 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

G0930 (UTG): 2,722 (27 bb)
Tilt_Release (UTG+1): 8,648 (86 bb)
ratbat615 (MP): 2,340 (23 bb)
Gallarado777 (MP+1): 7,663 (77 bb)
Mootso (CO): 3,170 (32 bb)
billibooo (BU): 3,555 (36 bb)
bgmDK9 (SB): 3,445 (34 bb)
moula64 (BB): 4,402 (44 bb)

Pre-Flop: (150) Hero (ratbat615) is MP with 3♣ 3♠
2 players fold, ratbat615 (MP) raises to 200, 3 players fold, bgmDK9 (SB) calls 150, moula64 (BB) calls 100

Flop: (600) 6♦ 2♠ 3♦ (3 players)
bgmDK9 (SB) checks, moula64 (BB) checks, ratbat615 (MP) bets 300, bgmDK9 (SB) folds, moula64 (BB) calls 300

Turn: (1,200) A♦ (2 players)
moula64 (BB) checks, ratbat615 (MP) bets 600, moula64 (BB) calls 600

River: (2,400) K♦ (2 players)
moula64 (BB) bets 2,400, ratbat615 (MP) folds

Total pot: 2,400
moula64 (BB) wins 2,400

Pre: I picked up pocket 33 in mp with 23 bbs so I just min raise to see what the other players do .both the blinds call.

Flop: 6d 3s 2d so I hit my set it goes check check so I noticed that the board is wet with flush draws and straight draws , 45 is a straight. So maybe 🤔 just shove. But I think 💭 this might be negative ev cause I would leave value out there so I bet half pot and the sb folds and the bb calls .

Turn: comes Ad now three Diamonds 💎 the Villain 🦹‍♀️ checks so now I could do some pot control and check but what are the hands 🙌 that the bb would have? With 44 bbs pre don’t know how villain 🦹‍♀️ plays but could definitely have suited cards which makes sense with the call 📞 on the flop . Anyway I bet half pot and the villain 🦹‍♀️ calls .

River: Kd so now we have 4 diamonds 💎 and the board did not pair now this is we’re the red flags 🚩 go off. I think 🤔 the villain 🦹‍♀️ bets enough to put me all in. I don’t know 🤷‍♀️ guys what do you think 🤔????

Question: do you think 🤔 I made the right decision?? Thank you 🙏 for your comments.

watching replayer no results- stopped preflop

Ok our preplan is ?

Are we expecting to win the blinds? At what frequency vs our player pool?
Are we expecting folds post flop if we are head up vs BB? On what boards are we bluffing our small pair?

Does our post flop plan to steal the pot post flop change when the SB calls? The SB call has high board coverage and the BB has all boards coverage are we now planning to bluff at a very low frequency? If so on flop would we hope to realize our equity by checking back most often?

Flop

set on a wet board

Would we ever check to see a clean turn card based on our SPR?
What sizing is most effective here?
We bet half pot giving SB 3 to 1 and BB over call 4 to 1 might there be a better sizing here?

BB calls they have they greatest amount of board coverage here including the nut hands and just flatted--- which the nuts would do---- does this change our turn plan now?

Turn

When we are studying this spot now we want to reflect on our relative strength with a set here
The nuts is a flush which the BB can have all combos and play like this-how many combos is that?
So 33 is now way down the list of nuts in relative strength terms-so do we want to play for stacks now or do we want to slow down and see a river?
Are we thinking about our SPR in this spot? Do we adapt our approach to this SPR?

We bet 600 targeting what range effectively? How does this effect our SPR--- does this pot commit us

This is a great spot to work on our range buckets what value targets are we hoping to call- is this the best size vs all the flush draws and those other value targets?

River 4 diamonds we fold-at this SPR does the V bet anything other than a diamond?

Does this result help us to backwards engineer this hand and make a different decision on turn?

 

[bowserdon]

odds are someone has a diamond,good fold IMHO

 

[ratbat615]

Pre: In total agreement with Fundiver that these hands need to be folded pre flop for the reasons he states.

Flop: This is where I diagree with the above. I think bet sizing is very important here because of what we should be planning to do for the rest of this hand. We shouldnt be in this hand to begin with but if we are starting with 23 BBs and flop a set then I am not looking to fold and thinking then about the best way to get the chips in the middle. If we go too small here then we cant jam turn without being a massive overbet to the pot. If we bet something like 400 here then we have 1740 behind and 1400 in the pot assuming one caller. That is an overbet jam for turn yes, but it isnt 2x overbet or anything super large like that and when its that close to 1 to 1 then it makes more sense (at least I think it would to villain) to jam since any bet would commit us to the pot anyway and therefore they might call off lighter. Even the 300 sizing you make it makes it 1800 behind and a pot of 1200 which is a doable jam turn of course but it would look better being closer to 1 to 1.

Turn: I would not have preferred another diamond but I do like the ace as Ax is the most common hand villains will play. So I already established that I am not folding so I would just get it in here even though we could be up against a flush. Any other size bet I would make here I feel would commit myself and I dont want 1 diamond hands seeing the river without fully paying for it. Of course this hand plays so much differently deep but with the stack we have I am going with this right now right or wrong. I understand my jam here is a bet where we only really get called when we are beat outside some small range of hands but being as short as we are you have to be more willing to take risk and go with it. I suppose we could also, as mentioned above, bet some amount and then call off raises but I would not be folding river then even with a bad card like what came. Just too much in the middle starting with too small a stack so that is another reason why I just go turn and kind of hope we are good.

Good hand to bring up because you can save a lot of money in these spots where you are short stacked by avoiding opening small pocket pairs and taking that away from this hand alone will help immensely going forward.

Thank you 😊 I am glad 🙂 you like 👍 it very helpful . Always pre flop decisions that made or break . Thank you for your comment.

 

[ratbat615]

watching replayer no results- stopped preflop

Ok our preplan is ?

Are we expecting to win the blinds? At what frequency vs our player pool?
Are we expecting folds post flop if we are head up vs BB? On what boards are we bluffing our small pair?

Does our post flop plan to steal the pot post flop change when the SB calls? The SB call has high board coverage and the BB has all boards coverage are we now planning to bluff at a very low frequency? If so on flop would we hope to realize our equity by checking back most often?

Flop

set on a wet board

Would we ever check to see a clean turn card based on our SPR?
What sizing is most effective here?
We bet half pot giving SB 3 to 1 and BB over call 4 to 1 might there be a better sizing here?

BB calls they have they greatest amount of board coverage here including the nut hands and just flatted--- which the nuts would do---- does this change our turn plan now?

Turn

When we are studying this spot now we want to reflect on our relative strength with a set here
The nuts is a flush which the BB can have all combos and play like this-how many combos is that?
So 33 is now way down the list of nuts in relative strength terms-so do we want to play for stacks now or do we want to slow down and see a river?
Are we thinking about our SPR in this spot? Do we adapt our approach to this SPR?

We bet 600 targeting what range effectively? How does this effect our SPR--- does this pot commit us

This is a great spot to work on our range buckets what value targets are we hoping to call- is this the best size vs all the flush draws and those other value targets?

River 4 diamonds we fold-at this SPR does the V bet anything other than a diamond?

Does this result help us to backwards engineer this hand and make a different decision on turn?

Omg 😱 that’s the way a poker player suppose to think 🤔 I am definitely following you I need to program my brain 🧠 to think 💭 like that. Thank you 🙏 again very useful information ℹ️.

 

[ratbat615]

odds are someone has a diamond,good fold IMHO

Thank you 🙏

 

[ADRI7HO]

It's hard to discard a hand like that, but in this situation I don't think there's much of a choice left for River.

 

[Matt_Burns88]

Pre-flop: I prefer just folding 33 here. It's a tricky stack size because we're too shallow to be getting the implied odds to make min-raising profitable when we hit our set, but we're too deep to open jam.

Flop: Great! We hit our set, but the board is very wet and our opponents ranges are very wide. They can literally have anything here to two over cards to a straight with a straight-flush draw. While we should only have a set of 6s, over pairs and over cards, including flush draws. When we have the range advantage, but lack the nut advantage, we should be checking a lot and when we bet, we bet large. Betting small doesn't really achieve anything apart from getting the junk to fold, so we bet large to get the hands that are going to call like draws, two pair and top pair to get maximum value.

Turn: This looks awful on the face of it, but actually A2-A6, which call the flop with a pair or a straight draw are more numerous than flush draws, especially as we know he can't have A♦. That said, with your SPR, I think it's reasonable to check here to keep in villains river bluffs. Shoving and taking down the pot is also not an unreasonable line, but I don't like 1/2 because if you get called your SPR is 0.5 and villain can profitably call with pretty much any made hand.

River: Disgusting. Now all those AxD that got this far have got there along with the flopped straights and sets and turned flushes. I just cant' see any bluffs here that make sense, except possibly 75/74 without a diamond. 22 shouldn't shove here and nor should two pairs, so there's no value hands you beat, so you essentially have a bluff catcher hand and an opponent with little to no bluffs. I think this makes it a very irritating but comfortable fold.

Ultimately you opened too wide and ended up losing half your stack. Poker is also a game of preserving our existing chips, not just about gaining more.

 

[fundiver199]

Flop: This is where I diagree with the above. I think bet sizing is very important here because of what we should be planning to do for the rest of this hand. We shouldnt be in this hand to begin with but if we are starting with 23 BBs and flop a set then I am not looking to fold and thinking then about the best way to get the chips in the middle. If we go too small here then we cant jam turn without being a massive overbet to the pot.

Yes you are right. With second set on such a wet board and an SPR of only 3,5, its better to make this a 2-street hand. Which require us to make a large chunky bet on the flop, so we can jam the turn without it begin to much on an overbet. From a theoretical standpoint, this is not a board, we want to C-bet particularly often, and for that reason we are "allowed" to use a big sizing. We can bet as much as 500 here. Its still less than pot, and it will leave exactly a pot sized bet for the turn, if one player continue.