MTT limping A6s and hitting an Ace on the flop - MTT tricky hand 1

[Irexes]

I'm trying to spot some MTT hands that I think represent important decisions but are not the kind of hands that usually get discussed. This may seem screamingly obvious to some, but I think this kind of hand is where things can go very wrong, very easily.

The call preflop is with the intention of hunting a flush or other monster. Mainly based on the implied odds of it being a multiway pot and a fairly passive table. My image is reasonably tight and I've not shown anything silly.

Jurrasic appears to be a bit loose, I've only got a handful of hands on him (and so he has the same on me) doctorevian is 11/4/1, PVSTKAN is 15/6/2 and tight.

An ace hits the flop and the bet is not big. What's my move here?

***** Hand History for Game 5782758137 *****
NL Texas Hold'em Trny: 32365365 Level: 6 Blinds(200/400) - Sunday, March 18, 16:34:08 ET 2007
Table 15K Gtd (951390) Table #3 (real money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 6: Irexes ( 18100 )
Seat 7: fatfred888 ( 5150 )
Seat 8: PVSTKAN ( 8555 )
Seat 4: FlubberDK ( 4077 )
Seat 2: doctorevian ( 17485 )
Seat 1: Nailbite ( 22605 )
Seat 5: bigbenleg ( 21150 )
Seat 3: Jurassic32 ( 6790 )
Seat 10: RacingToWin ( 8460 )
Seat 9: mieppaulusma ( 8830 )
Trny: 32365365 Level: 6
Blinds(200/400)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Irexes [6d] [Ad]
doctorevian calls [400]
Jurassic32 calls [400]
FlubberDK folds
bigbenleg folds
Irexes calls [400]
fatfred888 folds
PVSTKAN calls [400]
RacingToWin folds
Nailbite checks
** Dealing Flop ** [9s], [Qs], [Ah]
Nailbite checks
doctorevian checks
Jurassic32 bets [800]
Irexes ???

 

[ChuckTs]

I hate getting involved with an ace this weak when I don't flop a monster. PF is obviously fine as we're sitting deep with chips as are most of the other players, so our implied odds are massive.

So on the flop...we've got a loose player making a pretty weak bet on a decent action flop. Could mean anything - flush draw, straight draw, bigger ace, inviting bet w/ a big hand like 99 or A9, could be a positional bluff with 2 checks in front of him...so if we want to get involved, we should raise here to define our hand and his, and to protect against any draws.

The reason I don't like getting involved, though, is because by raising, we bloat the pot with a very marginal hand, and if he calls and checks to us on the turn, we probably have to throw out another sizeable bet.

We could keep the pot small by smooth calling, but that would invite the two players behind us to come in if they're holding draws. Then what, we check/call down to the river? I don't like it...

 

[NineLions]

Nice thread, Irexes. I find myself in a similar situation too often.

And nice analysis Chuck.

I would fold this one, not having at least a runner-runner flush draw to stand on. Too often this turns out to be Ace-rag vrs Ace-rag and the 6 is too low of a kicker to stand with. Somewhere in my reading I recall Ace-9 or Ace-8 (bad memory) as a suggested minimum to be playing against a suspected other Ace. What are the chances he's limped behind another limper with QK or QJ and is trying to find out if his pair is good? But as Chuck says I don't want to be bloating the pot with Ace rag.

 

[mrsnake3695]

I kinda disagree with Chuck here for a change. I think I would just call here. It's a weak hand and you don't want to put too much money in the pot here if you can help it but it's not time to fold top pair either. If you raise you might get rid of some draws but you might not and you certainly won't get rid of a better ace. So the chances are you will get called so you are putting more money in the pot when it's a good bet you are behind. If you smooth call villian might put you on an ace and if he doesn't have an ace he should slow down. If one of the draws hits and bets you simply fold to a big bet. Also if they other players fold after you and the draw hits you could represent the flush or straight, after all that is exactly how a draw would play it.

I really don't like putting in alot of money here, I think a raise is way to risky being this weak.

 

[ChuckTs]

I kinda disagree with Chuck here for a change. I think I would just call here. It's a weak hand and you don't want to put too much money in the pot here if you can help it but it's not time to fold top pair either. If you raise you might get rid of some draws but you might not and you certainly won't get rid of a better ace. So the chances are you will get called so you are putting more money in the pot when it's a good bet you are behind. If you smooth call villian might put you on an ace and if he doesn't have an ace he should slow down. If one of the draws hits and bets you simply fold to a big bet. Also if they other players fold after you and the draw hits you could represent the flush or straight, after all that is exactly how a draw would play it.

I really don't like putting in alot of money here, I think a raise is way to risky being this weak.

Don't get me wrong, raising here makes me cringe...as does calling though too...

Hence the dilemma of playing ace-rag on an ace-high board :/

 

[NineLions]

I wonder why more beginners don't post on these kind of useful educational threads. Even just to ask questions.

Does the high level of discussion scare them away? Or are they only here for the freeroll passwords?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

OOP I'd just check-fold.

In position though, it's awkward knowing what's best. I don't mind calling the flop and re-evaluating once we've seen what villain does on the turn. If he fires a second barrel I'm done, though.

 

[hott_estelle]

My least favorite hand in poker---A6 suited--it's not an automatic fold like A6 off-suit is in most occasions, and it can cause some tricky situations and decisions to be made.

I think in this situation, with a raiser and two other people behind you, I would fold on the flop. I don't mind calling here, and hoping to improve your hand on the turn or just folding if the raiser fires again. The problem with calling the flop and hitting the 6 or another A is that you could still easily be dominated---there are many hands that have A6 beat in a lot of situations.

I think, ultimately, I play the A6 suited differently in each situation that arises. It depends on my position, how many others are in the pot, chip stack, and tourney position. In this particular situation I would fold the A6.

The one problem most people have in playing A6 suited, is that they don't know what type of flop they are looking for in order to continue to play in the hand. In some situations, you're going to be looking for at least two pair or better, in other situations just pairing the A will be fine. When playing A6 suited this is the most important thing to remember, to know what you are looking for in the given situation.

 

[titans4ever]

I don't care about what cards you have it is what you are going to force the others to do on this hand and what will it force you to do.

Pot is 2000 with 4 limpers + BB. First action is by short stack betting less than 1/2 the pot.

You reraise to 2k and then what?
1) Big stack calls. The pot is now around 6-7k. You have position but will have to fire out another bullet of 3-5k to truely try and take the pot down. What will you do if he shoots out a pot size bet on turn? I would be forced to fold no matter what the turn card is and save the money for a better situation.
2) Short stack goes all-in. You now will have to call another 3-6k bet just to see turn and river?
3) Everyone folds and you risked 2k to win 2800.

Call the 800. Bloating a good sized pot to over 3k with two stacks of about 8k or less in yet to play and 2 big stacks that can still reraise after they checked.
1) Short stacks may feel this is a good time to try and take the pot with a large reraise on the draw. You call will be alittle easier since you have already added that 800 more to the pot you are now left guessing what they have.
2) Large stacks that checked can still flex some muscle with a large reraise behind you and semi bluff to take a nice size pot and force you to play big stack vs big stack.

Fold is my action and here is why.
I think after looking at the flop and number of players involved I would fold. I think by the end of the hand you will have to invest at least 7-8k of your 18k in the hand to try and win the hand. With that many limpers I alway fear a smaller pocket pair that hit a set and is slowplaying to max the profits. You may have the best hand but it will cost you alot of chips to find out.

 

[edge-t]

I don't know, but if I'm playing A6s, I'll come in preflop with a raise. With so many players in the hand post flop, it's a hard decision, I'll fold.

 

[Shoestringx]

I think that smooth calling here is a really bad idea the pot is 2400 so a call from you makes the pot 3200. That gives the two players behind you 4-1 odds to make a call allowing a large number of drawing hands to come in. Assuming that you don't get raised by one of the players behind you, you will still have no idea where you stand when the turn card comes, witht he only turn card to truly help your situation being one of the 6's, and this by no means guarantees you anything.

I think the only two plays here are to either raise to try and take the pot or to fold. In this particular case with two people left to act behind me I fold this hand. If you riase and get re-raised you have to fold, if you raise and get called, it could be a draw... but it could also be an A9, A10 who are still a little unsure of thier holding as well. I think the right play is to fold and wait for something better.

Incidentally, I would normally fold this preflop, but I just personally hate playing A-rag suited or not.

 

[Ronaldadio]

very interesting!!!

I`m calling to see a flop.

I hit top pair. I face a small raise. If your read is correct, what I need to know is u say the guy seems loose. If u reraise say the size of the pot, is he gonna come over the top with pair Q`s? I think not. I would raise about the size of the pot - against what I think everyone else has said . He reraises, I`m out. He calls. I c what the turn brings. If he bets the turn I would probably fold - the ace does not frighten him.

My thinking is simple, u have position, the guy is loose. I would be more concerned if one of the other guys called. Also, I am chancing just over 12% of my chip stack. The raise could take down the pot or at least show u where u stand.

I`m am here to learn, so feel free to tell me I`m wrong

 

[ginNjuice]

I`m calling to see a flop.

I hit top pair. I face a small raise. If your read is correct, what I need to know is u say the guy seems loose. If u reraise say the size of the pot, is he gonna come over the top with pair Q`s? I think not. I would raise about the size of the pot - against what I think everyone else has said . He reraises, I`m out. He calls. I c what the turn brings. If he bets the turn I would probably fold - the ace does not frighten him.

My thinking is simple, u have position, the guy is loose. I would be more concerned if one of the other guys called. Also, I am chancing just over 12% of my chip stack. The raise could take down the pot or at least show u where u stand.

I`m am here to learn, so feel free to tell me I`m wrong

The only thing i see as a danger to this play is if you make that pot sized raise into his flop bet you're only going to have to call 3k more into a 9k pot if he moves all in and if you fold to that bet you're showing real weakness in your image and will get a lot less respect at the table in future hands. Even though the call would almost always be incorrect in this spot if you chose to raise a short stack for half his chips be ready to put the rest of your chips in. Any bet that pot commits a short stack in a tourney is the same as pushing him all in and you have to be ready to commit that many chips to the pot even though you're only going to be betting half of them.

I'd most likely give up the hand here in this spot. You really didn't hit the hand you're looking for and there are a ton of draws out there and about half the deck will completely shut you down on the turn.

 

[dhizzle2]

lay it down tops bad kicker if u even call what are you gonna do when he fires on 4th and 5th gotta lay it down cant call could raise and see where hes at

 

[Ronaldadio]

Might be worth me starting to think this way. I think in the heat of battle I might throw it away, or at worst call.

 

[Irexes]

Fold is my action and here is why.
I think after looking at the flop and number of players involved I would fold. I think by the end of the hand you will have to invest at least 7-8k of your 18k in the hand to try and win the hand. With that many limpers I alway fear a smaller pocket pair that hit a set and is slowplaying to max the profits. You may have the best hand but it will cost you alot of chips to find out.

Left off responding for a while and thanks for all the responses.

I agree with almost all that's been posted and I did indeed fold. Titan's explanation being a really good summary of why.

Essentially it is hardly ever going to be the case that calling the bet is going to get you to showdown here and in fact it's quite likely that calling 800 here is going to price you in to calling the turn and/or river.

There's possbile (and probable) action behind and you have little chance of improving. (I like Estelle's comments about improving and still being behind, two pairwith A<J is seldom a monster)

Everything about this set up says you are losing more chips calling in the long run than you are winning. You almost have reversed implied odds here on the call (if there is such a thing).

I've seen a lot of people in this kind of situation get in all sorts of trouble as what I think is a fairly minor leak with the call on the flop becomes a car crash by the river.

 

[Irexes]

For the record the min raiser had ATo and the BB called with JQ, calling further smallish bets on the turn and river (lost the hand history, sorry).

 

[NineLions]

The call preflop is with the intention of hunting a flush or other monster. Mainly based on the implied odds of it being a multiway pot and a fairly passive table.

Is it overly simplified to say, you didn't get the flush draw or other monster, so like a medium or small pocket pair that didn't hit the set, just check/fold?

 

[Irexes]

Is it too simplified to say, you didn't get the flush draw or other monster, so like a medium or small pocket pair that didn't hit the set, just check/fold?

A tiny bit though that isn't a bad rule of thumb.

With position, or fewer limpers, or no bet in front, or slightly different table conditions or stack sizes this could be a different situation (more than likely still a fold though).

Same situation with 88 for example and I think that more of those variables are going to have to change before you want to make a bet.

 

[dj11]

Jump into the WayBack Machine, go back a minute, and fold preflop. No WayBack Machine? Ok

 

[Irexes]

In this case I call, knowing way down deep inside I should have folded. Your take on Jurasic being loose may be found out here, when he makes the big raise after the turn. Your call preflop was too weak, Clearly it was raise or fold, yet you only called.

I can see the argument for folding preflop, it's a speculative hand being played for implied value only with limpers ahead. I think calling is justifiable given the stack size but I'm fine with folding.

But with two limpers ahead and many yet to act, what size bet are you raising to here and what are you hoping will happen?

Surely a call is preferable to a raise?

 

[ChuckTs]

I don't think it's raise/fold at all. I think probably fold > limp > raise.

Limping's fine given how deep everyone is and the position we're in; we've got some huge stacks which means implied odds are through the roof. We're also seen as a fairly tight player, and it'll be hard to pin us on A6s if we do get involved post-flop.

 

[Irexes]

Sorry dj, quoted you at same time you edited.

 

[dj11]

Even I didn't really like anything past the WayBack Machine.......