MTT - Chip leader, good hands - analyse my play

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chrisash

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Here's the scenario... MTT - 55 players or so. Down to the last three tables. I'm chip leader (in the tournament) with 70,000 chips or so - about 1/4 of the total chips in play.

Logic would dictate that I play tight, and that's what I do... however I get wiped out in the space of 5 hands.

Hand 1:

I get QQ, raise 5000
Called by somebody all in, another 2000 for me... I call.

Showdown - he shows KK, I show QQ... nothing comes out, he wins.

Hands 2:

I get AA, raise 10,000.
Called by somebody all in, another 5000 for me... I call again.

Showdown - he shows QQ, I show AA... Q comes out on the river, he wins. I'm down another 15k.

Hand 3:

I get AK suited, call...
Another player raises all in for around 10000. I call, showdown...
He shows 77, I show AK, nothing comes up. He wins.

--

Okay, now I'm average stacked. Two of these hands were won by the same player so now he's chip leader by far. I'm playing it cautious for another 5 hands or so.... when:

A few hands in:
I get KQ suited, decide to go all in (blinds are going up now - I can't afford average stack).
Get called by the chip leader who shows 55... again, nothing comes up so he wins.

--

HELP! Maybe I should have just sat out of every hand until the final table - I would have been down 10k max and still would have been chip leader in the tournament... but when you get hands like AK suited or AA, isn't it silly not to play them? What should I have done?

really looking for tips here because I thought I was on to a guaranteed win in this tournament.
 
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chrisash

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I should add that this was a casino tournament - not online play... the guy who took two of my hands was a notorious bluffer. Just bad luck?
 
RedKing

RedKing

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I don't see how you can act any differently for the first 2 hands. 2000 more to call for pocket Qs when you raised 5000, seems like a no-brainer to me when you're the chip lead. There's no way you can fold pocket AA pre-flop. That was just bad luck.


What was the action before the 10000 raise when you had AK suited? It's tough call if you just called a small big blind. Also, I feel like you could have given up the K-Q suited instead of going all-in. What was your position and what was the action on the table?
 
stormswa

stormswa

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red


Here's the scenario... MTT - 55 players or so. Down to the last three tables. I'm chip leader (in the tournament) with 70,000 chips or so - about 1/4 of the total chips in play.

Logic would dictate that I play tight, and that's what I do... however I get wiped out in the space of 5 hands.

Hand 1:

I get QQ, raise 5000
Called by somebody all in, another 2000 for me... I call.

Showdown - he shows KK, I show QQ... nothing comes out, he wins.


cooler, for only 2k more nothing you can do.


Hands 2:

I get AA, raise 10,000.
Called by somebody all in, another 5000 for me... I call again.

Showdown - he shows QQ, I show AA... Q comes out on the river, he wins. I'm down another 15k.


I dont know why you are even asking about this one? :confused:

Hand 3:

I get AK suited, call...
Another player raises all in for around 10000. I call, showdown...
He shows 77, I show AK, nothing comes up. He wins.

--

Okay, now I'm average stacked. Two of these hands were won by the same player so now he's chip leader by far. I'm playing it cautious for another 5 hands or so.... when:

A few hands in:
I get KQ suited, decide to go all in (blinds are going up now - I can't afford average stack).
Get called by the chip leader who shows 55... again, nothing comes up so he wins.

--

HELP! Maybe I should have just sat out of every hand until the final table - I would have been down 10k max and still would have been chip leader in the tournament... but when you get hands like AK suited or AA, isn't it silly not to play them? What should I have done?

really looking for tips here because I thought I was on to a guaranteed win in this tournament.

im going to stop answering in red because really without stack sizes and positions and stuff I cant answer these.

no you shouldnt just sit out but really come on how is anyone supposed to help you analyze your hands without all the info in the hands.
 
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chrisash

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I don't see how you can act any differently for the first 2 hands. 2000 more to call for pocket Qs when you raised 5000, seems like a no-brainer to me when you're the chip lead. There's no way you can fold pocket AA pre-flop. That was just bad luck.


What was the action before the 10000 raise when you had AK suited? It's tough call if you just called a small big blind. Also, I feel like you could have given up the K-Q suited instead of going all-in. What was your position and what was the action on the table?

The AK suited - I think (memory is hazy now) it was a call (2000), fold, fold, call, all-in, then to me. Blinds both folded as did everybody else.

I think the KQ may have been a bit of a loose play... that was probably where I went wrong - I was disappointed at going from chip leader to average stack and wanted to salvage it on that hand. I know I had the better hand statistically, but he had the chips to burn... maybe I should have just paid to see the flop. I was second to bet (two left of big blind) - I wasn't trying to steal the blinds, I really thought KQs would hold through for me.

I'm just worried about my overall MTT play. If I'm sitting safe with 1/4 of the total chips in play, maybe I should have just left the table and had a drink or something while everybody else fought it else - then there wouldn't be any AA/QQ draws to tempt me into losing chips. I don't know though...
 
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chrisash

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red




im going to stop answering in red because really without stack sizes and positions and stuff I cant answer these.

no you shouldnt just sit out but really come on how is anyone supposed to help you analyze your hands without all the info in the hands.

Sorry, I appreciate the lack of info must be frustrating. I was just curious about overall MTT chip leader strategy an whether I should have sat out or not.

I don't really recall the postions etc - I'm guilty of getting into a chat with people at the poker table and not paying much attention to position etc - definately another flaw! We're not talking huge stakes games here though - £50 buy in ($100 or so). There were never an raises/reraises if that helps - it was always an all-in/call situation on every hand.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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The AK suited - I think (memory is hazy now) it was a call (2000), fold, fold, call, all-in, then to me. Blinds both folded as did everybody else.


ok, what were the blinds, what was your chip stack?

I think the KQ may have been a bit of a loose play... that was probably where I went wrong - I was disappointed at going from chip leader to average stack and wanted to salvage it on that hand. I know I had the better hand statistically, but he had the chips to burn... maybe I should have just paid to see the flop. I was second to bet (two left of big blind) - I wasn't trying to steal the blinds, I really thought KQs would hold through for me.

I'm just worried about my overall MTT play. If I'm sitting safe with 1/4 of the total chips in play, maybe I should have just left the table and had a drink or something while everybody else fought it else - then there wouldn't be any AA/QQ draws to tempt me into losing chips. I don't know though...

you sit out then could go from being major chip leader to just above 2nd. You should be stealing blinds but not putting a high percentage of your stack at risk. it is a artform to play the big stack. If you had plenty of chips then open shoving with KQ is kinda silly unless you are doing it on the blinds which you were not.

sitting out is never a good option.

as a big stack you should be open shoving alot on the blinds as long as its not a good amount of chips for you but if you have 50k and push on blinds 3k stack that is a +ev push everytime. BUT if you are pushing into 20k stacks that is not.

im guessing this is just a venting post which is fine, vent on.
 
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chrisash

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you sit out then could go from being major chip leader to just above 2nd. You should be stealing blinds but not putting a high percentage of your stack at risk. it is a artform to play the big stack. If you had plenty of chips then open shoving with KQ is kinda silly unless you are doing it on the blinds which you were not.

sitting out is never a good option.

as a big stack you should be open shoving alot on the blinds as long as its not a good amount of chips for you but if you have 50k and push on blinds 3k stack that is a +ev push everytime. BUT if you are pushing into 20k stacks that is not.

im guessing this is just a venting post which is fine, vent on.

Position on the AK - blinds were 600/1200, there was a small raise to 2000 and then an all in. My chip stack was second place at this point - 30k or so. This was all pre flop - all the action I mentioned above was pre flop. I'm usually extremely cautious pre flop but I think the stack got the better of me. I'd have done better with 1/10th of my stack as I'd have resumed my usual play style. I'm more of a tight statistical player and I can't do the whole bullying thing as chip leader.

At KQ point I was mid-stacked with my table. The chip leader was the guy who had taken two of my previous hands and ended up quadrupling up. I think the bet was too big and it was desperation play after losing my stack?
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Position on the AK - blinds were 600/1200, there was a small raise to 2000 and then an all in. My chip stack was second place at this point - 30k or so. This was all pre flop - all the action I mentioned above was pre flop. I'm usually extremely cautious pre flop but I think the stack got the better of me. I'd have done better with 1/10th of my stack as I'd have resumed my usual play style. I'm more of a tight statistical player and I can't do the whole bullying thing as chip leader.

At KQ point I was mid-stacked with my table. The chip leader was the guy who had taken two of my previous hands and ended up quadrupling up. I think the bet was too big and it was desperation play after losing my stack?

how was there a raise to 2k with the big blind being 1200, the minimum raise at that point is 2400?


as for the KQ if you were average there is no reason to open shove KQ, a simpler 3bet raise would be fine.
 
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chrisash

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how was there a raise to 2k with the big blind being 1200, the minimum raise at that point is 2400?


as for the KQ if you were average there is no reason to open shove KQ, a simpler 3bet raise would be fine.


Sorry, of course - it's much easier online when you have the logs!

These were player dealers so I guess the 2k passed somehow!

Thanks for the advice, anyway. :)
 
stormswa

stormswa

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from listening to how you describe everything you are playing weak/tight and are too concerned about the outcome of hands instead if you played them correctly. This is a horrible way to think, to even post the AA hand and the QQ hand pretty much proves this.


late in tourneys good pre - flop play is a must and if you don't like playing preflop seriously you are not going to last long in long tourneys. Preflop play is soo important most pots dont even see the flop. During the wsop they only show you the hands that usually go to postflop they dont show you the thousands that end preflop.

im not picking on you just giving points.





oh this is live?
 
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chrisash

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from listening to how you describe everything you are playing weak/tight and are too concerned about the outcome of hands instead if you played them correctly. This is a horrible way to think, to even post the AA hand and the QQ hand pretty much proves this.

late in tourneys good pre - flop play is a must and if you don't like playing preflop seriously you are not going to last long in long tourneys. Preflop play is soo important most pots dont even see the flop. During the wsop they only show you the hands that usually go to postflop they dont show you the thousands that end preflop.

im not picking on you just giving points.

oh this is live?

Yep, live.

I'm pretty sure tight play might be a flaw of mine... I'll often fold say 10/10 or J/J on a 3xBB raise preflop.

Do appreciate the advice - don't worry about the harshness. I could use it. There were a few spectators at this tourney yelling at me that I should have just sat out - hence me coming on here and asking where I went wrong.

Usually in live tournies I'm playing for mid-final table, small cash prize... so I just realised my flaws having gone out with nothing in this tournament when aiming for first.
 
stormswa

stormswa

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Yep, live.

I'm pretty sure tight play might be a flaw of mine... I'll often fold say 10/10 or J/J on a 3xBB raise preflop.

Do appreciate the advice - don't worry about the harshness. I could use it. There were a few spectators at this tourney yelling at me that I should have just sat out - hence me coming on here and asking where I went wrong.

Usually in live tournies I'm playing for mid-final table, small cash prize... so I just realised my flaws having gone out with nothing in this tournament when aiming for first.


tell the spectators that is why they are on the rail and you are sitting here still playing!

when you are the big stack in a tourney you are pretty much feared and should take advantage of that putting pressure on other players. Open limping with AK is just horrible, your AA and QQ hand nothing you could do, your open shove KQ is horrible.

here is what I see happened.

got QQ and had KK beat you - you felt bad but oh well.
you got AA - cracked ok now your pretty pissed.
got AK beat- wtf is going on how the $*(@%()!%*(@%
KQ - ALL IN $%#@%

hey guys on rail mind if I join you?

I think you let your emotions play your cards instead of your head, as for sitting out thats just horrible. You should be playing position poker without putting a good portion of your stack at risk. After limping with AK I dont see a point in calling a big portion with it. Again this depends on alot of info we dont have right now.

 
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