More $1 fun: bubble, BB vs minraise

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,583
Awards
1
There may or may not be much discussion in this one - just finished up this game though, and it was the one hand that stood out as being a bit non-standard.

We're on the bubble against two very short stacks - one of whom is disconnected. Villain in this hand has been min-raising pretty much every hand on the assumption that in this situation people will be folding to the money.

Given villain's range of pretty much ATC I decided to look him up on this one, figuring I've got a discount on the call and I can get away from the hand on an ugly flop.

Here goes:

full tilt poker Game #6403185724: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (Turbo) (48700229), Table 1 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 18:08:53 ET - 2008/05/13
Seat 2: jaminkaasa (8,395)
Seat 3: BretMavACE (680)
Seat 6: xjx1989 (420), is sitting out
Seat 8: OzExorcist (4,005)
xjx1989 posts the small blind of 100
OzExorcist posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to OzExorcist [Ks 8d]
jaminkaasa raises to 400
BretMavACE folds
xjx1989 folds
OzExorcist calls 200
*** FLOP *** [Jc Kd Kc]
OzExorcist checks
jaminkaasa bets 440

WWKLD?
 
Leeguana

Leeguana

Rising Star
Joined
May 13, 2008
Total posts
10
With the straight and flush draws on the board, I'd bet the pot. If he reraises you all in, you can still lay it down (I wouldn't though:) ) and probably get at least second in the tourney.
 
Steveg1976

Steveg1976

...
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
2,516
Awards
1
Bet, I would expect the villian in this spot to fold 75% of the time as it looks like a standard C-bet. I think calling in this spot would be wrong because there is the possibility that you are allowing a drawing hand a cheap card and you won't know where you stand.
 
nevadanick

nevadanick

Back to work ... zzzzz
Joined
Oct 3, 2007
Total posts
8,477
I think a pot (or near pot) bet would get the job done. I would fold it then to an all-in 3-bet, but that's just me. I think most replies I've ever seen to this is - it's only a buck, it's likely you're ahead (at this point), push and if you are beat - that's POKER, if you bust it's just a cooler (cooler-schmooler) and the like.

You'll hear all the 'what more do you want than trips to push?' from the agg players. I'm conservative (comes from being 'limit' oriented), so I would let the SS blind out.

Saves me from having to post a 'bubble boy' thread ... :p . and letting the 'disconnected' sitter backdoor it ITM.
 
ABorges

ABorges

Rock Star
Joined
Jul 3, 2007
Total posts
268
Even with him raising every hand I still fold this without even thinking on the bubble. I'm not sure what the best way to play this hand is, I just know I'm never going to be risking my tourney life under these conditions unless I improve to a fullhouse, because if you're called on the flop even by a flush draw or something, your equity on this hand won't be enough, as EV isn't the same as cEV (chip expected value, extremely important concept in SnGs). I think I might just call in spite of all the draws, if you then turn an 8 or J you can try to put your stack in the middle safely, but if a flush card or straight card comes and the big stack keeps up his aggression I avoid him. Your main goal in this hand right now is to go to showdown while not investing too much. Call the flop, check the turn regardless of the card and hope he checks, then just check/call the river if you still didn't improve.

If anyone has more good insight on this situation, please give us your input, as this is an interesting situation for me. These hard decisions are why I avoid playing post flop on the bubble.
 
dj11

dj11

Legend
Joined
Oct 9, 2006
Total posts
23,189
Awards
9
Raise!

If you weren't willing to play the hand from the gitgo, you should have folded pf.

What is it you were looking for, a quad flop?

At this point btw, the odds for the board pairing, or tripping (?) are only slightly lower than the board flushing or straightening. You ARE ahead now except to a very few specific hands, and yes they will occasionally show up, but the tooth fairy occasionally shows up also.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
What are we afraid of. He's min betting everything so he could have anything. He has a completely random hand and leads out with a cbet and we're holding an absolute MONSTER against his range, don't drive yourselves crazy thinking the worst. This is a great opportunity to make a real jump to winning not just finishing ITM. I'd give him a little min raise action and I call 100% of the time if he pushes.
 
Melkor

Melkor

Rock Star
Joined
Apr 20, 2007
Total posts
305
This is an insta-fold pre-flop for me. Whether the big stack has 72 turned upwards and raises I still probably fold (well, maybe not, but you get my point!).

Sure, he is raising with any two cards and I am sure you can outplay him after the flop but the risk of hitting a cooler or of the big stacks sheer aggression forcing us off a hand (which could be likely as he is aware of the bubble) make me fold. Plus, it is 300 chips, his lead is significant enough that 300 more doesn't matter.

The main factor that makes me get out here is that the short stacks are in deep soapy bubble and our chances of finishing second are currently huge. Cashing is all that matters in a SnG, sure, first is nice, but getting into the first three is essential. The only way we don't here is by challenging the big stack. Just let him have his moment of bullying and mow him down after one of the two shorties has bubbled.

Anyways, we have called and that is a sexy flop. Checking seems spot on as I imagine to get that big a stack villain is uber-aggressive, but now we bring the hammer down. I don't want to do something silly like shove and lose value from a jack or draw but a raise to around 1200 seems correct. Should we be shoved on, which I imagine we will be, the pot would then be offering us odds that we can't turn down. The guy could be doing it with any weaker king, maybe a draw and maybe a jack. It would look like we are beat but a call would be necessary.
 
Dwilius

Dwilius

CardsChat Regular
Joined
May 5, 2008
Total posts
7,583
Awards
34
What are we afraid of. He's min betting everything so he could have anything. He has a completely random hand and leads out with a cbet and we're holding an absolute MONSTER against his range
exactly, I'm not even afraid of a draw as even thats unlikely. I don't raise and let him get away from it though (holds the draw if he has it). He's been stealing on the bubble now its time to get some of that back and put yourself in good shape. I call like maybe I'm on the draw and see if he bluffs away some more before putting the rest of mine in on the turn. I suspect he'd need running cards to beat you.
 
S

switch0723

Cardschat Elite
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Total posts
8,430
fold preflop, only have to wait a few hands before bubbleis burst, and hopefully other shortstack will go soon after that.

After the call, we may aswell build the pot as it is, raise here to about 1400, call a shove
 
tpb221

tpb221

Chasing Gutshots
Joined
Apr 4, 2008
Total posts
2,095
Raise. Yes, you are very much in second but this is you chance to set yourself up for the win. You could put a real hurting on his stack.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,583
Awards
1
OK - so there's a few votes for folding pre-flop, a few more for throwing out a substantial raise, and a vote for a CiB if I've read Hillbilly's post right.

And if I'm reading right, there seems to be some split opinions on what to do after that: some are saying fold to a shove, some are saying call a shove.

I think there's sound arguments for all of the above, FWIW.

I've learned something already and I think I've worked out what my biggest mistake was - give this a little more time for discussion then I'll get to results?
 
N

nathanthomp

Guest
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Total posts
16
I would have folded PF. As played it looks like he is just going to bet with anything because no one wants to bubble. So I call and check turn and adjust accordingly.
 
F

feitr

Legend
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Total posts
1,570
Yea definitely a fold preflop. With such tiny stacks there is no point getting involved with the big stack at all. That said, what the hell kind of flop did you want? You flop an absolutely huge hand, and there is absolutely no indication you are behind here.

If you aren't comfortable shoving when you flop trips then you should fold in this situation 100% of the time preflop.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,583
Awards
1
OK - lots of fold pre-flops then. Anywho, I think my real mistake here was that I thought my action through, but not all the way through.

I (hopefully obviously) checked here going for a check-raise. If I lead, there aren't many hands that will give me action, but there's plenty that will take a stab at the pot if checked to. So villain bet just like he was supposed to... but then I had a brain freeze.

What do I do if the villain shoves? Do I call? It'd be kinda stupid to go out when there's at least one player about to be blinded out and while I've flopped a pretty good hand, there are some that beat me. Better kings, specifically, are what I'm worried about. I could save myself the decision by just shoving, but what calls me other than a hand that beats me? What better hand folds?

I think if I had've added that final step to my thought process before I checked ("Woo, monster, I'm gonna check-raise, then call / fold to a shove" rather than just "Woo, monster, I'm gonna check-raise") this would've been easy.

So what actually happened was I called, checked the hand down, and felt like a right bonehead when villain showed JTo :eek:
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
If you're not willing to get all-in here Oz you need to fold preflop. Anything else and you're just donating chips.
 
Dwilius

Dwilius

CardsChat Regular
Joined
May 5, 2008
Total posts
7,583
Awards
34
oh right you were first to act nvm. Well he wasn't getting ahead and you weren't getting much out of him. Looking back how do you think you get most if anything out of him?
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

Broomcorn's uncle
Joined
Aug 6, 2007
Total posts
8,583
Awards
1
If you're not willing to get all-in here Oz you need to fold preflop. Anything else and you're just donating chips.

That's the thing - I probably was willing to get all in here, I just didn't think that extra step out before I acted. It wasn't until it came time to pick the amount to raise to that I thought through to the "and then what?" stage.

I know if it was played live I definitely would've approached this hand differently - more time to think and all that.

D'willus: looking at the hand, I suspect we probably did get the most out of him. As soon as I called, villain lost any inclination to put any more chips in the pot, and I suspect he would've folded quickly if we had've raised the flop.
 
L

LUCIUS VARENUS

Enthusiast
Joined
May 20, 2008
Total posts
43
reraise preflop or fold. lead out on the flop/shove to reraise. if he has atc you should be outaggressing him and making him the dead money, not you (done by just calling too much). you should make him feel like he needs to hit the flop to play back. when you have him feeling this you can c-bet more flops and take away all that money he is leaving on the table.

in my opinion!
 
B

Bentheman87

Guest
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Total posts
794
This is an akward situation since the two shortstacks are about to go out, I think you should have folded preflop. In a normal situation call preflop. As played, check and raise to 1200.
 
Top