Low-M situations: 77 on the button

ChuckTs

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If you play tournaments online, you're bound to run into plenty of low-M (shortstacked) situations where you're forced to be making decisions for most or all of your chips. If you play turbos, then there's no avoiding them.

I'm bored, so I thought why not post some practice hands. I'm also curious what your responses will be to these hands, which I might add are all going to be from personal experiences. These will all be from 9-seater turbo STTs, with your standard PS payouts.

Hand #1:

Seat 1: udaman71 (1585 in chips)
Seat 2: ChuckTs (2875 in chips) (10/10/3) Seen as very TAG, shown down good starting hands, but have gotten aggressive lately.
Seat 3: Punjabster (4245 in chips) (~35/17/2) Was TAG but has gotten pretty aggressive preflop lately. Tight vs blind steals, though is aggressive on the steal himself.
Seat 6: bdppc (4795 in chips) (25/15/1) Limpey, small-pot player who has tightened up near the bubble.
udaman71: posts the ante 25
ChuckTs: posts the ante 25
Punjabster: posts the ante 25
bdppc: posts the ante 25
Punjabster: posts small blind 200
bdppc: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ChuckTs [7c] [7s]
udaman71: folds
ChuckTs: ...

What is our action?
What is our minimum pushing range here?
 
joosebuck

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pretty standard shove i think. with a stack like this ill shove prty much anything.
 
Jack Daniels

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Well, I don't usually play turbos, but I'd have to go with joose on this one and push. If both big stacks fold, you add 25% to your stack. And even if one calls there's a good chance you're still ahead.
 
skoldpadda

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I'm shoving any pair plus KQ, A10 or better. You still have good fold equity and a standard raise leaves you pot committed IMHO.

My range is probably tighter than it would be 3 handed or if I were 4th in chips on the bubble.
 
ChuckTs

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This is a must-push, I'd honestly say %100 of the time we should be pushing here. The blinds will hop up to 300/600 somewhere within 4 minutes, and we simply cannot pass this up. Glad you guys feel the same way :)

I should have put more emphasis on the second question which I think is much more interesting; what is our pushing range here?

...gonna wait for a few more responses before I put my two cents in.
 
NineLions

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I'm shoving any pair plus KQ, A10 or better. You still have good fold equity and a standard raise leaves you pot committed IMHO.

My range is probably tighter than it would be 3 handed or if I were 4th in chips on the bubble.

I'm agreeing with both these sentences, although in practice I tend to forget that I/you're not the shortest stacked and on the bubble. In other words, I tend to ignore the bubble and push any Ace or two cards over ten, bubble, then complain to myself that I didn't have to push yet.
 
Effexor

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With 4 people left people tend to back away from aggression, depending on how the table has been playing (and in this case tight as is usual for the situation) this is a push situation, although I wouldn't be opposed to the raise : then push on the flop regardless of what flops.
 
F Paulsson

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This is a must-push, I'd honestly say %100 of the time we should be pushing here.
Yes. Dear lord, yes.

Range for pushing: With a player in the BB who's tight on the bubble, I'm tempted to say "any two" but at the very least half of our hands.

Any pair, ace, king... Aw hell, anything better than T7o. suited hands, as far down to as J4s.
 
Debi

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I think you need to loosen up even more.

Wow - the 77 was an easy decision, but some of those hands would scare me to push with. (Of course we all know I am toooo scared lol). But at least I am listening.

So defining push here - what is the size of the push and does it vary within that range?
 
ChuckTs

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Yes. Dear lord, yes.

Range for pushing: With a player in the BB who's tight on the bubble, I'm tempted to say "any two" but at the very least half of our hands.

Any pair, ace, king... Aw hell, anything better than T7o. suited hands, as far down to as J4s.

...

I think you need to loosen up even more.

^^what FP's saying. Had the blinds been a little tighter here, I'd say this was a push with any two cards. The reasons I'm tightening up a little is because the situation is a little different.

We have two stacks behind us who are 1) big enough to eliminate us, and are therefore more likely to call since we don't threaten their whole stack, and 2) have shown through the game that they're looser than average (although they've now tightened up some), this creates the chance that they might call with a range of hands that doesn't just include premiums.

Like I said, we could be pushing with ATC vs weak TAGs, but I tighten up my range a little bit because of the above. I'd say FP's range sounds about right. T7o+, J7+, Q6+, any king, any ace, any pair, and add in some smaller suited connectors too.

Against looser opponents, we should be pushing our big cards moreso than our suited connectors and small pairs etc for the simple fact that we can be easily dominated with say our 33 vs. their 44, or our 67 vs their A7. We shouldn't be afraid of pushing, say A8 since as mentioned, they're much more likely to call with a dominated A7.

TAGs are more likely to call with only big aces and medium pairs and up, so we can push our suited connectors and small pairs since 1) we'll be seeing them fold the majority of the time, and 2) if they do call, we're not completely dominated with 67 vs AK for example, as opposed to being crushed by 67 vs A7.

Anyways, I'm ranting (again), but essentially we can loosen up vs tighter players, and tighten up vs looser players.

Wow - the 77 was an easy decision, but some of those hands would scare me to push with. (Of course we all know I am toooo scared lol). But at least I am listening.

So defining push here - what is the size of the push and does it vary within that range?

We're talkin awwrrrrinnn baby!!!

With only 7BBs and an effective M of like 1.7, we can't mess around here. It's either push or fold.

On a side note, if we're getting really aggressive and have pushed a bunch of times the last few orbits, then pick up AA or KK and decide to minraise - don't you think your opponents will notice our change in bet size?

We can't change the size of our bets based on the strength of our hand. <10BBs = all in.
 
Debi

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ChuckTs; We're talkin awwrrrrinnn baby!!! With only 7BBs and an effective M of like 1.7 said:
Okay the terms push and shove confuse me.
 
NineLions

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push = shove = all in


So, Chuck/FP, at this point the fact that you're on the bubble and not the shortest stack doesn't figure into you hand range much?
 
ChuckTs

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Nope.

The value of our M > the value of our Q. ie our stack in relation to the blinds should be a more important factor than our position in the tourney compared to other players.

As an example, we're on the bubble in 5th place of 30 left in an MTT with a 10K stack at 1K/2K blinds and everyone else has 4K. We should still be pushing to keep up with the blinds, not sitting back because we're in the top of the field.
 
NineLions

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Okay, I'll have to go back and find that thread on M calculations again.

Just like the WA/WB thread, it was something that I could follow in theory but I wasn't capable of adding it to my playing at the time. Now's a good time to review it.
 
joosebuck

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wa/wb is way more important to get super amazing at than M calculations. when in doubt, shove in low m situations. in low-m poker you [usually] do not err in the side of caution.
 
ChuckTs

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Okay, I'll have to go back and find that thread on M calculations again.

Just like the WA/WB thread, it was something that I could follow in theory but I wasn't capable of adding it to my playing at the time. Now's a good time to review it.


What joose said:

wa/wb is way more important to get super amazing at than M calculations. when in doubt, shove in low m situations. in low-m poker you [usually] do not err in the side of caution.


I personally don't use M in-game. I still gauge stack sizes by BBs deep, but Ms are pretty easy to calculate. Just take starting pot (BB + SB + antes), and divide it into your stack. I generally say that at 10BBs, that's pushing territory for me, and at 15 I start getting aggressive to make sure I don't have to resort to push/fold at 10BBs.
 
dj11

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You'll hate this.

I might min raise here. You might take it down with a min raise here, but can get a feel for the expected reraise. At this point it is either all or nothing, so fold, or try to pick up as much as you can. Standard raise will likely be folded out, gaining you only the blinds. Not bad, but 4 handed I would try for more.

Perfect place for the minraise expecting to get it all in the middle. Plus, should you then decide to punk out, you are still 3rd in chips.

This sng seems odd anyway. For the blinds to have got that large and still 4 players left seems like everyone there has been extremely analretentively tight.
 
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