Live rebuy tournament, odd hand

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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From a $15 live rebuy donkament I played last night. It's the second last hand of the rebuy period, and the table's eight-handed. Starting stacks were 20,000. Blinds are 300-600.

Relevant stack sizes and reads:

CO (Hero): 28,000
Button: 45,000 and a medium strength player. Not especially tricky, but doesn't need the nuts to bet.
SB: 24,000 stack, fairly tight player and tends to be passive.

Pre-flop there's one early position fold and the remaining players all limp in.

I'm holding Q8o and flat call as well: crap hand, but I figure stacks are relatively deep, I see a cheap flop, if I hit it then I could win a big pot, if I don't I can get away cheap. And I can still rebuy if it all goes horribly wrong.

Button flat calls, small blind completes, big blind checks. Pot's around 4200.

The flop comes: 3-8-8 rainbow

It's checked around to me - then before I can act the button bets 3000. SB calls the 3000 before the dealer points out to them that it's not their turn to act. They take their bets back, and the action returns to me.

What to do?
 
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switch0723

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well im putting him on an 8 or maybe pock 3's so i raise into him, see how much strength he shows from there. Basically see how much he like his kicker now. If you get a strong response, push all in and look to get lucky or you may even by against 7,8 or 8,9. If you lose your rebuying for basically the same stack

Also a quick note. Since you have 28000 with 20k being the rebuy amount. Im proably pushing this hand all in preflop and look for a suckout to double up and get a decent stack heading into 2nd hour. Since if you lose you rebuy for basically the same amount
 
Emperor IX

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Check it in annoyance, then raise it when it gets back to you. That'd be my plan.
 
WVHillbilly

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Check raise and hope half the table flat calls his raise before you do.
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Sounds like that's what I should've done. What actually happened was this:

I figure there's not many ways for that flop to hit my opponents and I'm ahead of most hands with an 8 in them. If I'm up against an overpair here (something in the range of 99-JJ probably, expect QQ+ they would've raised pre-flop) I figure I'm in good shape.

So I just put in the 3000, knowing they'll both call, and plan to get all the money in on the turn instead - maybe I'll get a little more action out of them, and with the lack of draws I figure I won't be seeing too many scare cards.

Turn is a 6, SB bets 7000, I shove, button folds, SB calls and rolls over 33, and I fail to suck out on the river. Sigh.

In this case, I was beat from the start and it wouldn't have made any difference if I had've shoved the flop - but in general y'all think it would've been a better play?
 
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switch0723

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it doesnt matter here, but in the long run, it is a better strategy
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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it doesnt matter here, but in the long run, it is a better strategy

It actually completely depends on whether there are add-ons as well as rebuys - were there? (I'm guessing no..) If there weren't then sure, shove pf. Also obv depends on how much 15 bucks means to you.

oooo and soz about the mini-bump
 
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switch0723

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you will be sorry :p

Chance for me to learn something new here, why is it important whether or not there are add ons jt?
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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Before I answer that let me firstly point out that a lot of the time add-ons get you more chips than rebuys even though they cost the same, but even if we start off on the premise that they get you 20k in this tourn (just like rebuys):

The difference between having 28k in chips and having 56k in chips at this stage in the tourn (with such high blinds) has a very large effect on your chances of finishing deep or not, so without add-ons this is definately a risk worth taking as the worst that happens is you rebuy for roughly the same stack, but with add-ons in two hands you are assured 48k for the same price without having to risk your stack with Q8o. If you do shove looking to try and double up then add-on then firstly you are almost a 3 to 1 dog on achieving this vs the range of hands calling you (around top 10%), and that's if it's HU. Even if you do double up and then add-on you will have a 76k stack, and the increase in your chances of getting deep in this tourn with 76k vs 48k is nowhere near as 48k vs 28k, therefore making the shove harder to justify. For every 3 out of 4 times that you don't double up you are then getting charged twice the amount (rebuy + add-on) to get to 40k as you would be to safely hit 48k, this difference in chips itself is not insignificant, and of course you would be another $15 down, so this shove in a rebuy + add-on is mathematically not justifiable.
 
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switch0723

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ummmm what jt?

Are you saying that by getting the add on you double your chip stack? are you sure thats right since i have never been in a rebuy tourny that has that rule. The add on is a set amount that is the same for each player. Or are there different tournies where the addon is double your chips? Surely thats too good for the big stacks which just become bigger
 
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switch0723

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what i just said may be wrong but i didnt really understand your post jt. Can you explain again in a simpler way
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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what i just said may be wrong but i didnt really understand your post jt. Can you explain again in a simpler way

I'm sorry I'm extremely bad with words :eek:. Here is a shorter hopefully simpler explaination.

- Add-ons = 20,000 more chips for $15 (we'll assume) - and yes it is a fixed amount of chips which does not vary for different stack sizes.
- If you don't shove the Q8o and then add-on you'll have 48,000 in chips for $30 total input into prize pool (if we haven't rebought earlier of course).
- If we shove the Q8o and get called we will win a little more than 1/4 of the time as our hand is so weak against villain's range.
- If we win and double up we will then have 56k, and an add-on will bring us to 76k for the same $30
- If we lose (which we will the vast majority of the time), we are forced to rebuy and once we add-on we will have only 40k for $45 total input.

The key point is that our chances of getting deep into the tourn with 76k (if we shove and get very lucky) vs 48k (if we don't shove and just add-on) is not a significant anough difference to justify calling and risking having to pay $45 for 40k, which will happen most of the time if we lose the hand when we shove.


(PS: if this still doesn't make too much sense if someone who is more eloquent with words and who gets the drift of what I'm attempting to say would like to explain that would be lovely.)
 
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switch0723

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ahh ok i get it now jt cheers. Ill definately think about that in the future
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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ahh ok i get it now jt cheers. Ill definately think about that in the future

Lol, why do Í get the the feeling that you are just saying this so as not to hurt my feelings... :eek:
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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It actually completely depends on whether there are add-ons as well as rebuys - were there? (I'm guessing no..) If there weren't then sure, shove pf. Also obv depends on how much 15 bucks means to you.

The structure in this game is actually a little odd - you can either rebuy or add-on, but not both. $15 either way, you get $20K if you rebuy, or an additional $10K if you add on.

The $15 is no issue for me, BTW.

So if I lose all my chips on this hand or the next one, I'd be back in at the start of the second hour with $20K, and blinds starting at 500-1000. If I fold this flop, and the next hand, I can add on and I'll be sitting on around $37K for the second hour.

Since we're talking metagame here, there's a few other factors to take into account too - there's a couple of players at the table (not involved in this hand) with stacks in the $200K range. Does that change anyone's thoughts on the best play here?

FWIW, it's the rebuy / add-on structure that made me lean towards seeing a cheap flop rather than open-shoving: if it's a bad flop for me, I can get away cheap, if it's a good flop, I've got a chance to add some chips before the break. I don't really wanna gamble on an open shove when there's a potential almost $20K difference to my stack size for the second hour at stake. At least, I don't wanna gamble with this kind of easily dominated hand.
 
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huntelaar25

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I don`t like rebuy tournaments!!!
 
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