KQs UTG

J

joeeagles

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I took alot of heat from table on this hand. Tell me what you think.


Table has been very "limpey". Tourney is $5.50, 90 seats, FTP double stack tourney. SB/BB 40/80. I've been playing tight, not many good hands, haven't been in many pots, no showdowns.


Dealt to hero: KhQh. I'm UTG.

seat3(hero) calls 80 (Ok, not a great move, but table has been limpey, my stack is 3225, I'm about 1k below avg)
seat4 calls 80 (decent player, has nice stack over 10k)
seat5(villain) raises to 250 (WTH of a raise is that with 2 limpers? His stack is 2210)
seat6 folds
seat7 folds
seat8 folds
seat9 folds
seat1 (SB)folds
seat2 (BB)folds
hero calls 170 (pot is 530, I'm getting 3 to 1 so I call)
seat4 calls 170


It's 3 to the flop. Villain has played tight TBH, 1 showdown won, he had the goods. About 3/4 hands before he doubled up a small stack with 2 pair (AQ) to a broadway on a 4 card straight board, they were all-in on the turn, small stack rivered the straight catching a J, he had AT. His minraise here was suspicious, but odds are too good for me to fold, I figure lets look at the flop. My whole play so far in this hand is pretty ugly, I'll admit. Other player seems pretty decent, aggressive after the flop, kind of loose PF but not a crazy one, a good player IMO, who also has the benefit of a healthy stack. I'm first to act after the flop.

Pot is now 870.

Flop: Ks9h4h

Hero: ??????????????????
 
joosebuck

joosebuck

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either can check or can small bet to get seat4 to call giving you more dead equity in the pot when the PF raisor raises you, and then smooth call or reraise shove. your call really.
 
HartAttack3

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yea up to you, I love this flop with this hand, I just smooth call after puttin out a small bet so it isnt obvious if i hit flush. Biggest problem here is if you hit flush how to not make it obvious I think. If he raises me a lot, I push, if he raises me about 200-300 I just call and hope a heart comes, then check raise all in.
 
J

joeeagles

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I like what you guys say about betting small and getting seat 4 involved, I didn't even think about it, problem is I'm afraid of him, he's got the big stack and he's aggressive(ish). So I decide to make ~1/2 pot bet and wouldn't mind to take it down there:


Hero: bets 480
seat4: folds
seat5: raises another 1480 and is all-in
Hero : calls 1480


It was clear from your both your posts you would have called the all-in, so I'll just show how it ended.

Hero shows (KhQh)

villain shows (AsKc)


Turn: 5c
River: Qd

Hero has 2 pair and wins 4790.


Reason I posted this hand is because villain went crazy after he lost (I had you dominated!!!!) and rest of table (those who spoke) agreed with him. Not that the cursing bothered me, I actually love it. When I mentioned about the flush draw, I now sucked because I put most of my stack on a draw. I normally don't do that but this had to have more outs than just the draw. Unless he has a set I have 12 outs at least, assuming I'm even behind in the hand. I don't play much at FTP, man, rough crowd...
 
HartAttack3

HartAttack3

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you had 12 outs, i will gladly put my whole stack on 12 outs especially with a hand like that. I love bustin people and then watching those abc guys who say you should never call with a draw, no matter what it is. Good play, tough he had ak, but i think you deserved the win anyway. If I have ak there I figure im up against flush draw, so I dont get too mad when I lose that hand lol
 
stormswa

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well

im iffy on this hand.....

on one hand I really really hate the preflop play....


but im fine on postflop play......


so I will just say NH.
 
J

joeeagles

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im iffy on this hand.....

on one hand I really really hate the preflop play....


but im fine on postflop play......


so I will just say NH.


I agree, PF play is embarassing. I got caught in the "limpiness" of the table and played it like a bonehead. I do think though that villain kind of looked for it because folding to his PF minraise would be foolish. Had he raised to 480 like he should of I'd have folded because he had been tight. TBH, I called because odds were good but did say to myself "don't get in trouble".

No excuse for poor PF play though.
 
NineLions

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If a table is limpy, what do you do? Keep raising normally (including adjusting for early limpers by increasing your bet) and try to force the hands that you play into being played properly?

Go into LAG mode (at cash tables) and take the money sitting on the table?


There's almost like a social pressure when the table is limpy that everyone should play by the table etiquette and be limpy too. I get caught in that often as well.
 
stormswa

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well the big problem with limping with a hand like KQ utg is you really will not have a clue where you stand, and KQ is such a trouble hand.

of course on this flop you are going to play seeing that you have TP and strong flush draw. But what if the flop would of been something like

QsTd6c?

you are going to lead this right? ok what if you get raised? you have no clue at all where you stand in the hand. The limper's could have anything QT,Q6,T6, and you will most of the times end up throwing this away. Or you could just check the flop and have to muck it when you get bet into or just call which is really bad. I would most likely just auto muck this from UTG because I don't want to get involved with a trouble hand UTG at all. If I was going to play it to say "mix it up" I would open this pot every time and the see what happens.

If I got re-raised I could fold preflop pretty sure I was beat, remember it takes a big hand to re-raise a UTG raiser. If I got called of course I was not getting away from this particular hand on that flop but that's being too result orientated. Im just never open limping this hand UTG, this is not personal towards the poster of hand just general analysis.
 
Stick66

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Pre-flop: If I'm gonna play KQs from EP, I either limp and fold to any raise OR raise to discourage limping. Limp/calling with KQ in EP is dangerous. The villian's pre-flop raise had AK written all over it.

Post-flop looks fine, but you got lucky with the Q. Also, I often seem to encounter sets when I call a flop re-raise push like this. Unless I have a very solid read on this guy, I might have laid down to his flop push and tried to survive on my 2500-ish stack. (Maybe I'm being too weak-tight here.)
 
joosebuck

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nah it was about a c/f from the flop. (35%~ from flush, 4% from runner straight and 11%~ from queens)
 
Stick66

Stick66

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nah it was about a c/f from the flop. (35%~ from flush, 4% from runner straight and 11%~ from queens)
Then I guess the question is: Do you wanna risk your tournament (or be severely crippled) on a coin flip?
 
joosebuck

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cant really say. we're below the average stack, i think it's not a bad move - but i'm not a deepstack tourney player. in the 3+r/5+r/11+r i'll shove/call this all day long.
 
A

alan1983

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He didnt have you dominated.

It was about 50-50 plus the odds that he doesnt have you beat (KQ Splitting ot KJ even) since you said he was aggressive.

Obvious call imo.
 
robwhufc

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Then I guess the question is: Do you wanna risk your tournament (or be severely crippled) on a coin flip?
It's only a coin flip because you now know he has AK, there's got to be a chance you're ahead here already - i can't fold here, i'd rather have a coin flip now than try and win from 2,500 chips with a tourney average of 4K+
 
robwhufc

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Reason I posted this hand is because villain went crazy after he lost (I had you dominated!!!!) and rest of table (those who spoke) agreed with him. Not that the cursing bothered me, I actually love it. When I mentioned about the flush draw, I now sucked because I put most of my stack on a draw. I normally don't do that but this had to have more outs than just the draw. Unless he has a set I have 12 outs at least, assuming I'm even behind in the hand. I don't play much at FTP, man, rough crowd...
I wouldn't give a toss what they said - yes you played badly pre-flop (Stormswa said word for word what i would have, and you yourself know you did) but who has never played a hand wrong and sucked out? You sometimes need a break to win, and you got a break, end of.
 
Y

young hova

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unlike seemingly everyone else I dont think the preflop limp is THAT BAD. You couldve definitely raised considering your table was a calling station. Still in this situation if you wouldve raised you wouldve most likely got reraised, if its all in, you definitely won't call with king high, and even if its not all in he might reraise you enough to make you want to get rid of the hand. So the limp wasn't all that bad to me, and neither was the call considering your stack and the pot odds and suited cards. I'll take my chances at s

I don't really like raising UTG with kq suited or not unless I have blind stealing intentions. When you raise UTG with this you'll either get reraised or called and you'll most likely be behind. The good players seeing a raise under the gun will probably give you credit for a much better hand than kq when they reraise you or call you, especially if you've been playing tight. Thats why I'll usually limp in a tournament with this stack UTG and and I'll make my read on whether I want to go on off the preflop raiser and the situation, that way I determine who I am going to play the hand with without putting more than what I want into the hand to begin with.

Post Flop play, I don't see really nothing wrong. Thats a type of flop that separates people's styles of play. In a $5 tourney with that flop, I would definitley try to get all of my money in on the flop If I could make someone else get there money in with me. At this point early in the tournament, I would definitely have no problem taking a chance to get the opportunity to become the table bully with a nice pot win. In other tournaments where I don't want to take that chance I'd probably check call reasonable bets to the pot, and if I can find the info and reason to lay it down than I might do that
 
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Bombjack

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I prefer check-raise all-in on the flop, rather than bet-call. If he's aggressive, he's going to bet anyway. You're ahead of AA. If he has AK you're slightly behind but basically flipping. You may have some fold equity as well. By betting out, he folds anything that can't beat a pair of Kings a lot of the time.
 
J

joeeagles

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I prefer check-raise all-in on the flop, rather than bet-call. If he's aggressive, he's going to bet anyway. You're ahead of AA. If he has AK you're slightly behind but basically flipping. You may have some fold equity as well. By betting out, he folds anything that can't beat a pair of Kings a lot of the time.


You're right. Problem is I was too concerned about the big stack, and I know I'm wrong on that too, because instead of being scared I should rather prefer the big stack bets and get some dead money in there (and he probably would of), which I didn't think about until Joose mentioned it. Because of fear my thought was to try and take it down right there, but you guys are right, the way I played this (poorly the whole way), I could have missed out on plenty chips if villain didn't have a K. If he had AQ or something like JJ, TT I'll lose his c-bet or big stacks attempt to take the pot. Its wrong to play scared when the flop is that nice to you.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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As played postflop is okay, but the stacks and situation are perfect for a CRAI.

This is a pretty nice example of one poor preflop decision leading to a lot of subsequent decisions which, while correct, resulted in getting a lot of chips in while a long way behind. The situation is easily avoidable by making the correct 'first' decision.

Obv fold first time around preflop. I could even make a case for folding to the UTG+2 raise even getting 3-1, as it's likely if we flop good we'll be obliged to stack off to AK-AQ/AA-QQ, which are all very likely holdings for UTG+2 here.
 
J

joeeagles

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unlike seemingly everyone else I dont think the preflop limp is THAT BAD. You couldve definitely raised considering your table was a calling station. Still in this situation if you wouldve raised you wouldve most likely got reraised, if its all in, you definitely won't call with king high, and even if its not all in he might reraise you enough to make you want to get rid of the hand. So the limp wasn't all that bad to me, and neither was the call considering your stack and the pot odds and suited cards. I'll take my chances at s

I don't really like raising UTG with kq suited or not unless I have blind stealing intentions. When you raise UTG with this you'll either get reraised or called and you'll most likely be behind. The good players seeing a raise under the gun will probably give you credit for a much better hand than kq when they reraise you or call you, especially if you've been playing tight. Thats why I'll usually limp in a tournament with this stack UTG and and I'll make my read on whether I want to go on off the preflop raiser and the situation, that way I determine who I am going to play the hand with without putting more than what I want into the hand to begin with.

Post Flop play, I don't see really nothing wrong. Thats a type of flop that separates people's styles of play. In a $5 tourney with that flop, I would definitley try to get all of my money in on the flop If I could make someone else get there money in with me. At this point early in the tournament, I would definitely have no problem taking a chance to get the opportunity to become the table bully with a nice pot win. In other tournaments where I don't want to take that chance I'd probably check call reasonable bets to the pot, and if I can find the info and reason to lay it down than I might do that


Nice post. KQs is a hand that I like alot but one must be aware of the trouble it can bring. The reason I limped is because table had shown this tendency, like I think happens often until the 1st break. If this were level 13, UTG or not, and based on table, I'd raise with this hand to attempt a steal and hope not to get called or reraised.

My thought was to get in and have multiway action, hoping to flop something good. I'll admit this isn't a great strategy but if you're careful in not overestimating your hand when you flop TP it won't be expensive. When villain raised, had he raised the right amount I would have folded w/o any doubt. But his raise was giving me better than 3 to 1, and I should consider it 4 to 1 because I know the big stack is coming in. I'll take a shot at it with those odds but you have to manage to stay away from trouble.

The flop was a great one for me. Even if I might be behind, like I was, I still have outs (9 to 14 outs). I think it was fine to call the shove all things considered, I was below avg. and even if I'm drawing, with 2 cards to come and an avg. of 12 outs, I'm almost coinflipping with a chance to have a nice stack as opposed to falling even more behind and probably having to risk later in a worst spot.

If I could change anything I'd check this flop instead of betting, in an attempt to get even more chips into the pot, as was suggested here by some members. In hindsight, that was a better move, and it carried the same risk because I already know that I'm not folding if I get shoved, and it is much better to be the one who raises all-in rather than calling an all-in.

Thanks for your comments.
 
J

joeeagles

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As played postflop is okay, but the stacks and situation are perfect for a CRAI.

This is a pretty nice example of one poor preflop decision leading to a lot of subsequent decisions which, while correct, resulted in getting a lot of chips in while a long way behind. The situation is easily avoidable by making the correct 'first' decision.

Obv fold first time around preflop. I could even make a case for folding to the UTG+2 raise even getting 3-1, as it's likely if we flop good we'll be obliged to stack off to AK-AQ/AA-QQ, which are all very likely holdings for UTG+2 here.

Agree to all the above, particularly on CRAI which carries less risk for the chance of getting villain to fold.

For the 3 to 1 situation, it depends on how good you are at folding when you know you can be in trouble.
 
Y

young hova

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Man I'm amazed at how many people think limping under the gun with KQ suited is out of control (king queen off suit is something else, I'll definitely fold that hand alot under the gun in most occasions, especially to a raise).

Joe I think you said it best when you said this:

for the 3 to 1 situation, it all depends on how good you are at folding when you know you can be in trouble
I just get the gist that some of ya'll just automatically feel you are obliged to call off all of your stack if the flop comes king or queen, with or without the draw. For this point, especially without the draw. If you have no draw and and king or queen comes with two rags, it seems like some of ya'll are saying that your automatically screwed and you have to call -- That ain't the case. If you know you can't fold if you hit in these situations than I guess you should fold preflop, but if you can make a fold in the right spots than this call definitely isn't one I would sweat over preflop.

I wonder how some of ya'll wouldve said that you would play the flop if joe said it came the same way only he has no flush possibilities (maybe something like a rainbow without any hearts). Same hand, and you are first to act, what are you going to do?
 
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Dorkus Malorkus

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For the 3 to 1 situation, it depends on how good you are at folding when you know you can be in trouble.

Man I'm amazed at how many people think limping under the gun with KQ suited is out of control.

I just get the gist that some of ya'll just automatically feel you are obliged to call off all of your stack if the flop comes king or queen, with or without the draw. For this point, especially without the draw. If you have no draw and and king or queen comes with two rags, it seems like some of ya'll are saying that your automatically screwed and you have to call -- That ain't the case. If you know you can't fold if you hit in these situations than I guess you should fold preflop, but if you can make a fold in the right spots than this call definitely isn't one I would sweat over preflop.

The problem is that being out of position and with a relatively small stack, we will be making incorrect decisions (or at least very 'blind' decisions) too often. Given the size of the pot, the first raise on the flop is going to be an effective shove. What do you do if you hit a flop? Check-fold (weak - if we're playing for two pair+ we need better odds than 3-1)? Bet-fold (congrats on just short-stacking yourself)? Bet-call (congrats you just stacked of to any of a whole host of hands)?

I don't really understand why you feel the limp isn't terrible. Because of it, we're either going to be playing a multiway pot OOP with a reasonable but still potentially troublesome multiway hand, or we're going to feel compelled to call a small raise and potentially get into very big trouble OOP against a range that crushes us, or we're just going to have to fold pf to a big raise.

Why are you so eager to play KQs OOP at a full table? With these limited stacks there's no way you can make very effective decisions later in the hand whatsoever.
 
riffpoker

riffpoker

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KQs UTG lol fold or because of the limpy table maybe and thats a shaky maybe.. check raise. but you got lucky this time.....thats poker.
 
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