KK preflop - call? shove? Villain has?

[un-diluted]

ok, I am 4/30, with ave. about 8k. I've seen loose calls on the shortsatcks by SyPhEr38 and Goldschmit. Everyone else is playing VERY few hands.

First, do I shove or call here

second, what could Goldschmit have here? (hint- it's not something absurd like 9 10, not TOO tricky)


This is actually one 1 of 2 hands. Second will obv. be next, with same villain Goldschmit



AA was my first thought (but then decided against), with his minraise and smooth call preflop. Also because some of the other strange plays he's made. I even saw him limp from UTG+1 w KK once

I will continue the hand in a bit

pokerstars Game #20795501516: Tournament #111135224, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2008/09/29 16:40:21 ET
Table '111135224 13' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: cyrilc79 (2600 in chips)
Seat 2: Blauwe50 (6765 in chips)
Seat 3: xzoleex (5690 in chips)
Seat 4: Goldschmit (9225 in chips)
Seat 5: un-diluted (13414 in chips)
Seat 6: SyPhEr38 (14965 in chips)
Seat 7: nist212003 (7063 in chips)
Seat 8: spydahegas (8155 in chips)
Seat 9: alnr1 (5945 in chips)
cyrilc79: posts the ante 25
Blauwe50: posts the ante 25
xzoleex: posts the ante 25
Goldschmit: posts the ante 25
un-diluted: posts the ante 25
SyPhEr38: posts the ante 25
nist212003: posts the ante 25
spydahegas: posts the ante 25
alnr1: posts the ante 25
cyrilc79: posts small blind 150
Blauwe50: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to un-diluted [Kc Kd]
xzoleex: folds
Goldschmit: raises 300 to 600
un-diluted: raises 900 to 1500
SyPhEr38: folds
nist212003: folds
spydahegas: folds
alnr1: folds
cyrilc79: raises 1075 to 2575 and is all-in
Blauwe50: folds
Goldschmit: calls 1975
un-diluted: ?????????????

 

[t1riel]

I can't see myself folding here and I don't want Goldschmit try to get cute with miniraises and limps on the flop. A shove is the best move here. Isolate the all in player.

 

[petey5o]

PUSH...you have to go all in there..its a must. 1. you really want gold to fold here after you push. already a nice sized pot so you would be content with it. He's probly not gonna fold his hand. So even if you lose to the all in you'll still make chips with your side pot. And worse case scenario he beats you, you made the right move and your still in the tourney. but from the looks of it i would guess he would have Ace and a face suited. ??

 

[twizzybop]

You probably won't isolate the player with a push all in but however, you probably are in the best shape going in pre-flop. The worst case scenario is you are behind pocket AA's.

On the other hand you both have significant amounts in your chip stack, so seeing a flop wouldn't be to bad of an idea either. The problem now is that your pocket KK's would look like pocket 22's if there is an ace on the flop. I also highly doubt gold is going to check it all the way down so you 2 could possibly eliminate the short stack. Yet if he wanted to isolate the short stack, he should have raised so I wouldn't put him on pocket AA's.

 

[vanquish]

Easy shove. Also make your original raise bigger.

 

[ChuckTs]

Easy shove. Also make your original raise bigger.

What the crazy russian said^^^

 

[slowpoke83]

He's already called the short stack's all in, but he didn't raise enough for you to fold or for it to be pocket AAs. So my guess is he prolly has a lower pair or AQ, AJ. If you don't want to risk seeing the flop with Goldschmit, you'd have to go all in. I have a feeling no matter what you do, Goldschmit is going to see the flop. If I were you I'd see the flop for as cheap as possible.

 

[robwhufc]

second, what could Goldschmit have here?

Who cares! Once the chips are in, there's nothing you can do about how the cards fall.

Very easy all-in - the hand has worked out absolutely perfectly for you (so far!), with the small stack going all-in, and reopening the betting.

I'd a raised a tiny bit more preflop, but only a few hundred - you want to keep him in the hand, but not allow people to limp in behind you.

 

[Jabbie1]

you have to call and shove on the flop if you dont see an A

 

[robwhufc]

you have to call and shove on the flop if you dont see an A

..and leave Goldschmit with 6,650 chips that you would have won by putting him all in.

 

[twizzybop]

..and leave Goldschmit with 6,650 chips that you would have won by putting him all in.

*scribble* *scribble* may win, KK's aren't guaranteed to win.

 

[robwhufc]

*scribble* *scribble* may win, KK's aren't guaranteed to win.

and he's not guaranteed to call an all in now with his tournament life on the line, and he's not guaranteed not to hit trips or 2 pair or flush on the flop, and he's not guaranteed to have an ace when an ace does flop etc etc etc.

 

[Dank Hugh]

For certain, this is a shove.
If you get beat on the board, so be it.
Thats Poker

 

[twizzybop]

and he's not guaranteed to call an all in now with his tournament life on the line, and he's not guaranteed not to hit trips or 2 pair or flush on the flop, and he's not guaranteed to have an ace when an ace does flop etc etc etc.

This is the whole point of this exercise, no really correct way to play this.
Is either the Hero or Villian a better post flop or pre-flop player?

Is Hero going to extract more chips by pushing or just calling,

What if Villian holds A-K and the flop brings another King?

If we are so afraid of any of the Villian's holdings there is going to be a possibility Hero is going to lose weither or not he pushes or just calls.

The only certainties in this hand is short stack is putting tourney on the line and that the Hero holds 2nd best starting hand pre-flop.

Now logic says if we do indeed have the best hand which more than likely we do,(could be against AA's for all we know even against Gold whom just straight called) nothing more could be done then going in a race while holding the best hand.

 

[un-diluted]

Easy shove. Also make your original raise bigger.

ok that makes sense. Thanks. Here's the rest...(thanks everyone else) I just wondered if just seeing a flop first before getting my chips in was a safer play

PokerStars Game #20795501516: Tournament #111135224, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (150/300) - 2008/09/29 16:40:21 ET
Table '111135224 13' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: cyrilc79 (2600 in chips)
Seat 2: Blauwe50 (6765 in chips)
Seat 3: xzoleex (5690 in chips)
Seat 4: Goldschmit (9225 in chips)
Seat 5: un-diluted (13414 in chips)
Seat 6: SyPhEr38 (14965 in chips)
Seat 7: nist212003 (7063 in chips)
Seat 8: spydahegas (8155 in chips)
Seat 9: alnr1 (5945 in chips)
cyrilc79: posts the ante 25
Blauwe50: posts the ante 25
xzoleex: posts the ante 25
Goldschmit: posts the ante 25
un-diluted: posts the ante 25
SyPhEr38: posts the ante 25
nist212003: posts the ante 25
spydahegas: posts the ante 25
alnr1: posts the ante 25
cyrilc79: posts small blind 150
Blauwe50: posts big blind 300
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to un-diluted [Kc Kd]
xzoleex: folds
Goldschmit: raises 300 to 600
un-diluted: raises 900 to 1500
SyPhEr38: folds
nist212003: folds
spydahegas: folds
alnr1: folds
cyrilc79: raises 1075 to 2575 and is all-in
Blauwe50: folds
Goldschmit: calls 1975
un-diluted: raises 10814 to 13389 and is all-in
Goldschmit: calls 6625 and is all-in
Uncalled bet (4189) returned to un-diluted
*** FLOP *** [2h As Qc]
*** TURN *** [2h As Qc] [8d]
*** RIVER *** [2h As Qc 8d] [4d]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Goldschmit: shows [Ac Qd] (two pair, Aces and Queens)
un-diluted: shows [Kc Kd] (a pair of Kings)
Goldschmit collected 13250 from side pot
cyrilc79: shows [Qh Qs] (three of a kind, Queens)
cyrilc79 collected 8250 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 21500 Main pot 8250. Side pot 13250. | Rake 0
Board [2h As Qc 8d 4d]
Seat 1: cyrilc79 (small blind) showed [Qh Qs] and won (8250) with three of a kind, Queens
Seat 2: Blauwe50 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: xzoleex folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: Goldschmit showed [Ac Qd] and won (13250) with two pair, Aces and Queens
Seat 5: un-diluted showed [Kc Kd] and lost with a pair of Kings
Seat 6: SyPhEr38 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: nist212003 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: spydahegas folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: alnr1 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)



I was really surprised to see aq there, after my reraise and other action preflop. Anyway, I lost side pot from the ace and the main from the set, so hmm... darn it



Here's the 2nd hand. Fold or shove? 19 left, bubble. pays 18.

PokerStars Game #20796156221: Tournament #111135224, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level X (300/600) - 2008/09/29 17:04:46 ET
Table '111135224 13' 9-max Seat #3 is the button
Seat 1: cyrilc79 (13772 in chips)
Seat 2: Blauwe50 (3915 in chips)
Seat 3: xzoleex (6600 in chips)
Seat 4: Goldschmit (16374 in chips)
Seat 5: un-diluted (6228 in chips)
Seat 7: nist212003 (9347 in chips)
Seat 8: spydahegas (9646 in chips)
cyrilc79: posts the ante 50
Blauwe50: posts the ante 50
xzoleex: posts the ante 50
Goldschmit: posts the ante 50
un-diluted: posts the ante 50
nist212003: posts the ante 50
spydahegas: posts the ante 50
Goldschmit: posts small blind 300
un-diluted: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to un-diluted [Kd Ah]
nist212003: raises 1200 to 1800
spydahegas: folds
cyrilc79: folds
Blauwe50: raises 2065 to 3865 and is all-in
xzoleex: folds
Goldschmit: calls 3565
un-diluted: ????



Seems like an obv. fold to me, but after seeing Goldschmit put so much value on the last hand, I question a fold here.

Any input?

 

[Rememberthis1]

You have to fold that, don't you? Unless you feel like you're going to be out in 18th place, I would fold.

 

[vanquish]

Meh, I probably still shove. It's not like you're playing to double your money.

 

[twizzybop]

Let me see, facing a raise then re-raise and a call. Blinds are only at 600 which you have well over 10X the BB, fold and let the rest fight it out.

 

[feitr]

lol both are ridiculously easy shoves. How could you even consider folding AK when your M is only like 5?

 

[vanquish]

lol both are ridiculously easy shoves. How could you even consider folding AK when your M is only like 5?

He said it was because he was on the bubble?

 

[twizzybop]

lol both are ridiculously easy shoves. How could you even consider folding AK when your M is only like 5?

Then explain by all means how the AK would be the heavy favorite against never mind 2 opponents this time but 3-4?

Just step out of the way, it is a train wreck waiting to happen and again he is way over 10X the BB. If you wish to overrate AK like most people do then go ahead by all means, push it all in.

If you wish to survive and make money in this tourney, step out of the way and fold.

 

[S93]

Then explain by all means how the AK would be the heavy favorite against never mind 2 opponents this time but 3-4?

Just step out of the way, it is a train wreck waiting to happen and again he is way over 10X the BB. If you wish to overrate AK like most people do then go ahead by all means, push it all in.

If you wish to survive and make money in this tourney, step out of the way and fold.

Ak isnt a heavy favorite very often here but with all this dead chips+pot odds+M of 5+A nice chipstack if whe win that gives us a good chance at a final table= Easy shove imo

Where not playing to double or buy-in for 2hours of play,where playing to win and this hand is a perfect spot to put us in a postion to do so

 

[twizzybop]

Ak isnt a heavy favorite very often here but with all this dead chips+pot odds+M of 5+A nice chipstack if whe win that gives us a good chance at a final table= Easy shove imo

Where not playing to double or buy-in for 2hours of play,where playing to win and this hand is a perfect spot to put us in a postion to do so

*IF* is such a big word, but you are now also forgetting that AK also loses some EV because he is in the BB. He is well in position to be in the money by folding compared to gambling on *IF*.

Hold-em is more than a game based apon gambling, there is also a strategy involved and if the tool of strategy doesn't apply then push with the A,K and hope for the best.

After this blind goes by, you can now sit and wait till you are at a later position at the table to make a stand. Early Position one needs a hand to fight with, AK vs a raise, re-raise, call isn't the hand to fight with.

 

[ChuckTs]

The fact that you're in the big blind makes no difference at all except that it gives you better odds to call. You don't lose EV shoving AK in the BB, that doesn't make sense.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

#1 is a clear shove for reasons already stated.

#2 is a shove because for you to bubble the shorty has to beat both you and the bigstack and the bigstack has to beat you (for the sake of simplicity let's assume UTG folds seeing the crazy action and goldcallingstation guy calls because he's a donk).

shorty > bigstack > you = you bust and bubble
shorty > you > bigstack = you win the side pot and end up roughly back where you started
bigstack > you > shorty = you bust ITM
bigstack > shorty > you = you bust ITM
you > shorty > bigstack = you have oodles of chips, bubble bursts
you > bigstack > shorty = you have oodles of chips, bubble bursts

plus you're pretty decent against their ranges - the shover shoves with AQ here, goldthingy probably calls with a few Ax hands, both could have PPs which you're flipping against. yeah they could have AA and KK but it's not especially likely (especially in the calling station's case)