KK 3-handed Low Flop in MP VS x2 Aggression

Stick66

Stick66

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6-player turbo SNG. One player gone. Macadoo has been semi-quiet and Gomes is borderline maniac with loose PF calls, 3rd pair showdowns, and has been caught bluffing a few times.

I raised just 3x BB because I wanted Gomes to make a move, but Macadoo's re-raise is a bit scary. I call since Gomes called and the pot is large. Since Gomes checked the flop, I make a bet just over half the pot. Macadoo insta-pushes. Gomes thinks, then just calls.

With all those chips in there, what's my correct move versus 2 opponents with reads on totally different ends of the spectrum? Does one have a set? AA? Just AK of Spades on a draw? How much does the quality of play in $6 SNG's factor into my odds? Are my pot/implied odds here worth risking my last 1000 chips?

I really wanna win this thing and I've been good at Turbos lately, so I'm confident working with only 1000 chips.


FullTiltPoker Game #3005364050: $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) (22949364), Table 1 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:26:52 ET - 2007/07/20
Seat 1: MrSticker (1,850)
Seat 2: gAngStA 151 (1,405)
Seat 3: macadoo76 (1,620)
Seat 4: gomes68 (3,075)
Seat 6: donkeykiller20 (1,050)
gomes68 posts the small blind of 30
donkeykiller20 posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #3

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrSticker [Kd Kh]
MrSticker has 15 seconds left to act
MrSticker raises to 180
gAngStA 151 folds
macadoo76 raises to 300
gomes68 calls 270
donkeykiller20 folds
MrSticker calls 120

*** FLOP *** [7s 2c 8s]
gomes68 checks
MrSticker has 15 seconds left to act
MrSticker bets 550
macadoo76 raises to 1,320, and is all in
gomes68 has 15 seconds left to act
gomes68 calls 1,320
MrSticker .....
 
Emperor IX

Emperor IX

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Since it's still early, I'd fold to stay in it a bit. Wait for a more sure moment. One of them may have Aces.
 
I

IVEverLow

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In the low levels I find raise pf+insta-allin on the flop regardless of the cards on boards 99.8% of the time is the rockets. I fold and watch the maniac take down the pot with 87s.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Pleeeeeease reraise preflop. Getting scared with kings is ridiculous. If you're so sure that villain has AA that you decide to smooth call (and invite the loose maniac along too), then we should be folding this flop.

As played, I still get my stack in. 99+ fits in very well here, and maniac's range is huge.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Umm, preflop, we have KK, we're up against a villain who's range (even accounting for the fact we've marked him as "semi-quiet") we're easily ahead of, and there's a substantial amount of dead money from some lagdonk in the pot.

So yeah, Chuck is right - reraise preflop. In fact, stacks dictate that the reraise really needs to be a shove. Macathingy probably won't go away, but that's good considering we have even an AA-QQ/AK range beat and captain lagdonk has contributed to swelling the pot (and if he wants to call with his pocket 7s or whatever, then even better! :))
 
J

joeeagles

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Agree on the PF reraise with KK. If you're scared get a dog. Lol, just kidding with you.

Seriously, the one thing to consider is that table is now 5-handed, so we can't let Macadoo's reraise scare us in these conditions, because shorthanded the range for reraising is huge. I know it can still be AA even if its 5-handed, but its just a chance you need to take because you can't get soft with kings in fear of aces, if he has them so be it.

Probably DM is right that the only raise is a shove at this point, but consider that the pot is 810 already so its worth getting it if they both fold, there's no reason to think you didn't get enough value for your kings.

As played I agree to call anymore even if it sounds reckless with both villains all-in and I already know that the maniac will probably make his flush and take it down. But its true that ranges are huge and you are very likely ahead right now, so call and have no regrets whatever happens.
 
heatfan03

heatfan03

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well after that flop u better fold guyz sitting on 7 2.
 
shinedown.45

shinedown.45

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your looking at a flush draw from G, and an overpair from mac, possibly JJ,QQ, AA.
Make the push, chances are you'll lose main but will win side pot here, if you push here, gomes will call your push, and if your lucky, mac is only holding QQ or JJ and you'll have a nice lead.
 
Stick66

Stick66

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My question was aimed at the flop decision. But since many folks are hung up on re-raising PF, here's the scoop:

I could have titled this thread like Joose's "The best read I've ever made" or whatever. But it wasn't. It was the EASIEST read I've ever made. "Semi-quiet" = weak-tight. I believe Macadoo had won 1 hand by check/calling down from the blinds. He was so weak-tight that he would have just called my PF raise with anything less than Aces. His PF re-raise was such a pure signal is was almost unfair. I knew he had Aces, but he made it cheap to continue and the maniac was along for the ride. I wasn't "scared" of Aces. I knew it was Aces!

Now for the flop: My 550 bet was designed to try to get another card cheaply and possibly get rid of Gomes. It was my last shot since I wanted to keep 1000 chips to work with further. With the 2 pushes, I bailed out. To me, it was obvious. But if they were both maniac donks, I would have definitely pushed here.

My question was about playing this flop correctly regarding odds (or about wasting 550 if Aces were so clear). I guess you could say that my read on the Aces figured heavily into my implied odds. Of course, I'm not being results-oriented about the fact that the Queens won. But my read on the Aces combined with my confidence in my 1000 chips versus the maniac are what won me this SnG. (Gomes 3rd, Gangsta 2nd)

If you don't believe my read was solid enough to do what I did (a lucky guess) or if you think I played this weakly, go ahead and say it here. You won't hurt my feelings. I appreciate other perspectives very much.


FullTiltPoker Game #3005364050: $6 + $0.50 Sit & Go (Turbo) (22949364), Table 1 - 30/60 - No Limit Hold'em - 15:26:52 ET - 2007/07/20
Seat 1: MrSticker (1,850)
Seat 2: gAngStA 151 (1,405)
Seat 3: macadoo76 (1,620)
Seat 4: gomes68 (3,075)
Seat 6: donkeykiller20 (1,050)
gomes68 posts the small blind of 30
donkeykiller20 posts the big blind of 60
The button is in seat #3
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to MrSticker [Kd Kh]
MrSticker has 15 seconds left to act
MrSticker raises to 180
gAngStA 151 folds
macadoo76 raises to 300
gomes68 calls 270
donkeykiller20 folds
MrSticker calls 120
*** FLOP *** [7s 2c 8s]
gomes68 checks
MrSticker has 15 seconds left to act
MrSticker bets 550
macadoo76 raises to 1,320, and is all in
gomes68 has 15 seconds left to act
gomes68 calls 1,320
MrSticker folds
macadoo76 shows [Ac As]
gomes68 shows [Qc Qs]
*** TURN *** [7s 2c 8s] [Qh]
*** RIVER *** [7s 2c 8s Qh] [8c]
macadoo76 shows two pair, Aces and Eights
gomes68 shows a full house, Queens full of Eights
gomes68 wins the pot (4,150) with a full house, Queens full of Eights
macadoo76 stands up
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 4,150 | Rake 0
Board: [7s 2c 8s Qh 8c]
Seat 1: MrSticker folded on the Flop
Seat 2: gAngStA 151 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: macadoo76 (button) showed [Ac As] and lost with two pair, Aces and Eights
Seat 4: gomes68 (small blind) showed [Qc Qs] and won (4,150) with a full house, Queens full of Eights
Seat 6: donkeykiller20 (big blind) folded before the Flop
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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Umm, if you 'know' he has Aces based on preflop, why on earth are you not check-folding this flop? Why are you throwing 500 chips away to 'see another card' when (a) you're drawing to 2 outs to beat villain, and (b) villain isn't going to fold, either on the flop or after pretty much any turn card?

More importantly, by 30/60 in a turbo donkngo, how on earth can you have a read that enables you to put this guy on Aces and Aces only?

Sorry, but this all just doesn't add up.
 
Stick66

Stick66

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Umm, if you 'know' he has Aces based on preflop, why on earth are you not check-folding this flop? Why are you throwing 500 chips away to 'see another card' when (a) you're drawing to 2 outs to beat villain, and (b) villain isn't going to fold, either on the flop or after pretty much any turn card?
Right. I think that's where I messed up.
Dorkus Malorkus said:
More importantly, by 30/60 in a turbo donkngo, how on earth can you have a read that enables you to put this guy on Aces and Aces only?
Because I can see into your avatar's soul!! JK

It was the 15th hand and he was very weak-tight ("So are you, Stick"). Maybe he flopped a set. Maybe it was a lucky guess, but his aggression versus 2 of us made the read a bit easier, IMO. I just may have called this flop heads-up. I dunno.
Dorkus Malorkus said:
Sorry, but this all just doesn't add up.
I know it may seem like I'm full of sheet. But instead of me using the word "knew", let's just say I had a very strong read about the Aces and I didn't play the flop correctly.
 
Stick66

Stick66

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BTW, how do you correctly multi-quote within the same post like I did above without having to manually add HTML quote tags and so I get those blue arrows on all the quotes??
 
ChuckTs

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Umm, if you 'know' he has Aces based on preflop, why on earth are you not check-folding this flop? Why are you throwing 500 chips away to 'see another card' when (a) you're drawing to 2 outs to beat villain, and (b) villain isn't going to fold, either on the flop or after pretty much any turn card?

More importantly, by 30/60 in a turbo donkngo, how on earth can you have a read that enables you to put this guy on Aces and Aces only?

Sorry, but this all just doesn't add up.

Sums up my thoughts perfectly.

You simply can't be sure he's got aces after so few hands. I've played hundreds of STTs without playing a single hand by this point - that doesn't mean my first raise (or reraise) has to be aces.

Really, I have nothing else to add to Chris's post.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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BTW, how do you correctly multi-quote within the same post like I did above without having to manually add HTML quote tags and so I get those blue arrows on all the quotes??

If it's possible, I don't know how to do it. I've always copy/pasted the html code to do it.
 
J

joeeagles

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It was the 15th hand and he was very weak-tight ("So are you, Stick"). Maybe he flopped a set. Maybe it was a lucky guess, but his aggression versus 2 of us made the read a bit easier, IMO.

Well, whether it was a read, a lucky guess or your "poker gut", like I read on someone else's thread, for sure you succeeded where I would have failed. It was a bit ugly on the flop because your 550 bet was reraised all-in by one villain and the other called, as a matter of fact in my 1st post I did admit that I'd call but it was kind of reckless, you have to give credit for some kind of hand to at least one of them, but it didn't necessarily mean you were behind, table is 5-handed which makes ranges wider.

I'd get knocked out here because PF I would have reraised or even better shoved, no way I'm smooth calling kings with 2 in the pot already in a 5-handed game. Heck, I wouldn't do it on a full table, leave alone 5-handed. Guess it means aggression doesn't always pay. Whatever it was that made you fold, good job.

I have to agree with Chris though that if you really knew, then why bet 550 on the flop?
 
Stick66

Stick66

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Thank you all for the different perspectives so far. Maybe I shouldn't be convinced that it was such a good read. Either a lucky guess or some weak-tightness on my part. I probably would have still posted this hand if I lost. It always seems to be a big deal to me when pocket QQ, KK & AA are involved. Me VS Weak-tight VS Maniac makes it even better.

And yes, I realize I wasted 550 on the flop. Thanks all again.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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BTW, how do you correctly multi-quote within the same post like I did above without having to manually add HTML quote tags and so I get those blue arrows on all the quotes??

Sums up my thoughts perfectly.

You simply can't be sure he's got aces after so few hands. I've played hundreds of STTs without playing a single hand by this point - that doesn't mean my first raise (or reraise) has to be aces.

Really, I have nothing else to add to Chris's post.

Hit the little " icon on each one you want to add to the multiquote, then hit the Quote button to reply.

Edit: Oops, added the wrong quote from Chuck. You also have to hit the " on the right posts.

:)
 
Stick66

Stick66

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Hit the little " icon on each one you want to add to the multiquote, then hit the Quote button to reply.
NineLions said:
Edit: Oops, added the wrong quote from Chuck. You also have to hit the " on the right posts.

:)
Thanks NL. But I want to do this ^^^^^

I want to split up one post into separate quotes, not quote more than one post. As it is, I have to add the quote tags by hand. I wanted to know if there was a smooth move to do this.
 
NineLions

NineLions

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Thanks NL. But I want to do this ^^^^^

I want to split up one post into separate quotes, not quote more than one post. As it is, I have to add the quote tags by hand. I wanted to know if there was a smooth move to do this.

Oh, I see. I just copy and paste the html.

I dunno if there's a simpler way or not.
 
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