The joys of NL hold'em!

[Bombjack]

Just trying to work out who played this hand like a bigger donk, me or him... This was a $1 MTT.

Hand 922768329, Started at 29/08/2006 21:46
Table 'Oran': 20-20 No Limit HE (TournamentChips)
Seat 0: Rosey2626 (2,095 in chips)
Seat 1: MAC_CL (1,660 in chips)
Seat 2: Bombjack_x (4,530 in chips)
Seat 3: lol91 (6,970 in chips)
Seat 4: roitou (3,465 in chips) (on the button)
Seat 5: gdotson88 (1,070 in chips)
Seat 6: bobo33141 (4,215 in chips)
Seat 7: hc8601 (1,155 in chips)
Seat 8: ddb420 (3,405 in chips)
Seat 9: wooddyy33 (415 in chips)
*** Blind Bet Round *** :
Dealt to Bombjack_x:
gdotson88 : Post Blind (50)
bobo33141 : Post Blind (100)
*** Pre-Flop *** :
hc8601 : Fold
ddb420 : Fold
wooddyy33 : Fold
Rosey2626 : Fold
MAC_CL : Fold
Bombjack_x : Call (100) <--- should probably open for a raise
lol91 : Fold
roitou : Fold
gdotson88 : Fold
bobo33141 : Bet (500) <--- clearly has absolutely nothing, hence...
Bombjack_x : Call (500)
*** Flop *** :
bobo33141 : Bet (700) <--- steal attempt
Bombjack_x : Raise (2,000) <--- my "Phil Ivey" moment. Fold, you bastard! Actually, I am ahead
bobo33141 : Call (1,300)
*** Turn *** : [ 10s Ks Qc ]
bobo33141 : All In (1,615)
Bombjack_x : Call (1,615) <--- slightly more questionable, but I did have an Ace and the pot is now huge
*** River *** : [ 10s Ks Qc Ac ]
bobo33141 : Show Cards
Bombjack_x : Show Cards
*** SUMMARY ***
Pot: 8,480 | Rake: 0
Rosey2626 lost 0
MAC_CL lost 0
Bombjack_x lost 4,215 Shows [ ] (two pairs, Aces and Kings)
lol91 lost 0
roitou lost 0
gdotson88 lost 50
bobo33141 bet 4,215, collected 8,480, net 4,265 Shows [ ] (a straight, Ace high) <--- as suspected, he lucked out on the turn
hc8601 lost 0
ddb420 lost 0
wooddyy33 lost 0

 

[Stick66]

(Next time, try leaving off the results 'til later. You'll get some opinions that are more substantial.)

Flat call the flop because too many hands could beat you and, technically, you are drawing.

Fold the turn, unless you don't mind waisting a dollar to find out what he had.

And yes, a PF raise would likely have gotten rid of him.

 

[Bombjack]

I raised the flop because I was 90% sure his pre-flop raise was a steal (I was right).

I wasn't really drawing on the flop - in fact, I thought I was probably behind, but I didn't give him credit for much and tried to make him fold. Which, if he had half a brain, he would have done. All he has is a straight draw for most of his chips.

On the turn, I beat a lot of hands. So long as he doesn't have a Jack or 2 pair, I win. If he has something like K5 or Q9, 88 or a flush draw I win. If he has Ax, it's a tie. I'm getting about 4:1 on my chips as well.

 

[Jack Daniels]

I wasn't really drawing on the flop - in fact, I thought I was probably behind...

Okay, maybe I'm just being silly, but if you thought you were behind, then weren't you drawing? You had A high and were drawing to a gut shot broadway. Or have I just totally lost my poker vocabulary due to work today?

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

- Limping first in with Ax sooted is horrid. Really, really horrid. The only time you're justified in limping such a hand is when there are limpers before you and you're reasonably confident the pot will be unraised. At this stage of a tournament, when the blinds are just starting to get meaningful, limping from MP with pretty much anything is a big mistake.

- Sorry, but there's no way you can be '90% sure his raise was a steal'. There are very, very few situations in which you can be 90% confident of anything in poker (ditching silly things like 'my 32o is beat'), and this is not one of them. Similarly there's no way you can be sure you're ahead on the flop - maybe he is stealing, but even if he has 44 he's ahead of you, and probably feels committed enough (bearing in mind this is a $1) to go all the way.

Fold preflop, fold the flop, for the love of God fold somewhere! As played this is just chip spewing of the highest order. You have a comfortable stack and absolutely no need to get so deeply involved with nothing. If he is stealing, well, good for him. Play back when you actually have something to play back with though, because people don't fold at the $1s.

I don't know why you call the turn questionable when it's pretty much the only correct decision you made in the hand, given the pot size.

 

[Bombjack]

Okay, maybe I'm just being silly, but if you thought you were behind, then weren't you drawing? You had A high and were drawing to a gut shot broadway. Or have I just totally lost my poker vocabulary due to work today?

It's a bluff, i.e. a raise when you don't think your opponent has anything. You don't need to have much yourself. As it happens I was ahead on the flop (like I said, I thought I was probably behind). Call it a semi-bluff if you like with an overcard and gutshot straight, but it certainly wasn't a value bet. Don't you guys ever bluff? If not you have a serious hole in your game. Haven't you seen Phil Ivey play?

I agree with most of your post Dorkus. I think my main mistake was to limp in when I should have raised. If I thought it was a steal, I could have re-raised pre-flop, or done a Tony G all-in. But maybe you're right, I should have folded pre-flop in the circumstances.

 

[Stick66]

I wasn't really drawing on the flop - in fact, I thought I was probably behind..

It's a bluff, i.e. a raise when you don't think your opponent has anything. You don't need to have much yourself. As it happens I was ahead on the flop (like I said, I thought I was probably behind). Call it a semi-bluff if you like with an overcard and gutshot straight, but it certainly wasn't a value bet. Don't you guys ever bluff? If not you have a serious hole in your game. Haven't you seen Phil Ivey play?

From the Poker glossary on PokerListings:

Semi-Bluff:
A powerful concept first discussed by David Sklansky. It is a bet or raise that you hope will not be called, but you have "outs" if it is. A "semi-bluff" may be correct when betting for value is not correct, a "pure bluff" is not correct, but the combination of the two may be a positive expectation play.

Drawing Hand:
A drawing hand is a hand that is not winning at the moment and requires improvement in subsequent betting rounds.

Sorry to nitpick, but JD and I just want to make sure you know that while, yes, it was a "semi-bluff" since all you had was Ace-high and didn't know if he had 44 or something, you were also in fact "drawing" since that is part of the definition of a semi-bluff. That's all. Just trying to help.

 

[scifell]

MrSticker

Semi-Bluff:
A powerful concept first discussed by David Sklansky. It is a bet or raise that you hope will not be called, but you have "outs" if it is. A "semi-bluff" may be correct when betting for value is not correct, a "pure bluff" is not correct, but the combination of the two may be a positive expectation play.

The bold part is the key here. The idea was that a "pure bluff" IS correct here because the other guy has nothing and should fold to a sign of strength. At least, that is what Bombjack thought.

 

[Bombjack]

Poll added! Please cast your votes.

 

[t1riel]

Your opponent's preflop raise is an understandable one since he has position. Even the reraise after the flop can be understood since he had open ended straight draw and a backdoor flush. I'm not saying his play was great but to answer your question, you were the bigger donk.

 

[gord962]

You forgot one, the obvious selection "Both of us"

Neither one of you played this hand well, so there isn't one selection on the poll that I feel is the right answer.

 

[Stick66]

Poll added! Please cast your votes.

Hope you don't take this badly because you seem pretty cool. But this poll will not help you at all. "Who played this like a bigger donk?" How about "How could I have played this hand better?" The answers to this question will do you much more good. The poll could go:

A) Fold preflop
B) Call the flop
C) Fold the turn
D) Any of the above

My answer would be "D".

 

[joosebuck]

What would your opponent raise with that you could be ahead of him on the flop? Not AK/AQ/AJ/A10. Not A/x at all. Not any pocket pair. Only thing you're really ahead of is low suited connectors. Fold preflop, or raise if you have to play it.

 

[Bombjack]

What would your opponent raise with that you could be ahead of him on the flop?

How about a junk hand (which was what he had)? Or something like 55 where he doesn't really want to see a flop.

I vote for him playing it most donkishly. Raising with junk, throwing more money away on the flop, calling a raise for most of his chips with only a straight draw... ok he happened to get lucky on the turn and won, but I successfully made him make a mistake so I think I played it pretty well.