JJ in SB - three plays, all wrong?

OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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This is the third hand of the game, and the first thing that goes through my head is that there's three ways to play the hand, and all three of them are wrong :p

Not much in the way of reads, being so early. yankeedime is aggressive, took out a player on the first hand and won the second pot. The second pot, yankee open-limped with QTo.

Thoughts? Is there really a good option here?

full tilt poker Game #4085459500: $1 + $0.25 Sit & Go (Turbo) (31042488), Table 1 - 15/30 - No Limit Hold'em - 7:09:50 ET - 2007/11/06
Seat 1: Barlette (1,485)
Seat 2: Canones (1,440)
Seat 3: OzExorcist (1,470)
Seat 4: TRIXEY (1,500)
Seat 5: yankeedime (3,495)
Seat 6: gpz7282 (1,110)
Seat 7: waynzworld (1,500)
Seat 8: StrAighTnuTs666 (1,500)
OzExorcist posts the small blind of 15
TRIXEY posts the big blind of 30
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to OzExorcist [Jd Jc]
yankeedime calls 30
gpz7282 calls 30
waynzworld folds
StrAighTnuTs666 folds
Barlette folds
Canones raises to 150
 
Melkor

Melkor

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In a one dollar turbo a re-raise will be called by anything from say 66+, Ace x+ and probably KJ, KQ and QJ as well, so really, a re-raise (unless it is a shove) is not going to achieve much in moving our opponent out of the pot. However, we are most probably ahead right now and we do want to get our money in while we are ahead, plus we are out of position, so calling would be questionable. Therefore, probably the best move is to raise it to 500-600 and hope for a favourable flop when the call comes.
 
dj11

dj11

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FOLD!

LOL!

Don't you just hate jacks the most. Tens, no problem, Queens, no problem! But those pesky Jacks are the worst.

You have to raise or fold. But in a turbo, you cant fold here. You (IMO) have to raise here if for no other reason that your continuation bet will be respected. But you do not need to go on tilt here. Standard raise will probably take it or get it HU. 450, should drive out the chaff, and leave you against Canones.
 
J

joeeagles

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I'd shove :) . I know it sounds silly, but I think it's the best play. It's a $1 turbo, you're in the SB and an overcard is going to come on the flop over 50% of the time. If you 3-bet this it has to be to 450, which leaves you with about 1k and if called the pot will be also 1k. Any proper c-bet ( ~500) and you're pot committed. The smallest c-bet you can make is 400. Sure you could still fold if villain shoves your c-bet and the board has an overcard, but it'd leave you with only 600, a huge wall to climb. Although the 3-bet is the ideal play I just think stacks are ugly for it, like always happens in the early stages in tournies where the starting stack is 1500.

Flat calling isn't ideal either because I can already see this going 4-way, which is not good with JJ. It would be like playing for set value, but even so I think it's better than 3-betting because you won't feel attached to the pot and you can get away from it if you feel you're behind, and you'd be left with 1300. Flat calling is a very weak play but it has some benefits considering you're OOP.

I think you're right when you say there are 3 ways to play it and all 3 are wrong :) . All things considered I suggest the shove, but I'm 1st to admit it's far from being the correct play, I just think it's better than the other 2.
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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the clear play is to reraise, imo. canones is on the button and it's a $1 turbo donk 'n go. make it 500-600, shove the vast majority of flops (i mean, i'm probably letting go if it comes AKx)
 
Lats

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raise it to 600 and call a shove/shove most flops
 
jaketrevvor

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lol this is why I HATE Js so much! :mad: The trouble is if you raise a decent amount but not push you're pretty much pot comitted anyway (unless of course the flop comes AKQ you can get away), and your pretty much just hoping for no A, K or Q to come (ridiculous). But then again if you push it's a ridiculous overbet and risk at this stage in the tourn - WHAT THE HELL DO YOU DO!!:confused::confused:

(out of interest what did you do?)
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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Cheers guys. I did re-raise it, and this happened:

OzExorcist has 15 seconds left to act
OzExorcist raises to 450
TRIXEY folds
yankeedime calls 420
gpz7282 folds
Canones calls 300
*** FLOP *** [8d Kc 7c]

Maybe the re-raise wasn't big enough.

Anywho, so now what? I've got two opponents, I'm out of position, and I figure there's a good chance at least one of them is holding a king.
 
jaketrevvor

jaketrevvor

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Well.. if we give each a loose range, saying they would have called with the top 10% of their hands (excluding AA, KK, QQ where they probs would have reraised), namely JJ-88,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo , then you actually only 30% of the time have the best hand (surprising I think - your actually a dog according to pokerstove), and leading out for anything substantial = all-in

EEK!! :eek:
 
blankoblanco

blankoblanco

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check now. i'm not going all-in (your only choice for a real bet, really) against two players with the K there. one, but not two. if it goes check-check, there's a good chance you can win the pot later on. if someone bets, it's really likely they have you anyway
 
J

joeeagles

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This is why I didn't like the reraise, you got not 1 but 2 callers which is pretty much the average in $1 tournies, and the reason why I insist the shove was the better move. At these stakes the reraise to 450 with JJ will mean losing a lot of medium/high pots in the long run and the shove is a much better move because you can expect to get called quite frequently by someone with a medium pair or even with a hand like A9, AT which has you over 70% favored.

As played you can only check/fold to almost any bet. KQ, KJ, KT and K9 are all in their ranges, especially yankeedime's who limped/called. I don't think Canones has a K, I'd put him on strong/medium A like AQ, AJ or AT, although there is a small chance it's AK or KQ. In truth the flop isn't too bad because with a nice c-bet you could be representing AK, but the problem is the size of the pot. Any believable c-bet means you have to shove but don't expect hands like KQ, KT to fold, so I don't suggest it. Check/fold is the only play now.
 
twizzybop

twizzybop

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There will never be a right or a wrong way to play JJ's. The are as troublesome as 10's... Which brings the damned if you do and damned if you don't. The What if factor comes to mind, what if I did it that way.. the flop is what determines as to how far one is willing to continue especially with JJ's and/or 10's
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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...and check-fold I did:

*** FLOP *** [8d Kc 7c]
OzExorcist checks
yankeedime bets 1,020
Canones calls 990, and is all in
OzExorcist folds
yankeedime shows [Qc Kd]
Canones shows [7h 7d]
Uncalled bet of 30 returned to yankeedime
*** TURN *** [8d Kc 7c] [3s]
*** RIVER *** [8d Kc 7c 3s] [Js]
yankeedime shows a pair of Kings
Canones shows three of a kind, Sevens
Canones wins the pot (3,390) with three of a kind, Sevens

The results-oriented version of this is I had've shoved pre-flop, I would've won. Otherwise, I figure I was betting with the best of it and folding with the worst of it so... *sigh* I guess.

Some live play friends of mine reckon the only way to play JJ is all-in before the flop. I wasn't really a subscriber to the theory before this and I still don't know if I am, but maybe it's got some merit in situations like this?
 
J

joeeagles

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Some live play friends of mine reckon the only way to play JJ is all-in before the flop. I wasn't really a subscriber to the theory before this and I still don't know if I am, but maybe it's got some merit in situations like this?


Oz, I can tell you as a fact that online, in low stakes tournies with a $1/$2 buy in or less like this one and in the situation you were in with a couple of limpers and a raiser, the shove is the only way to go. A 3-bet, in that spot, will almost never take down the pot PF or isolate the raiser. Plays like the one yankeedime made, limp and then call a 3-bet, are very common. What's worse is they get rewarded. Sure, eventually these guys will go busto, but they can make a significant dent in your stack before that happens if you don't adjust to their sloppy play.

Many people on cardschat don't understand that whatever the correct play is in any given situation, the same doesn't always apply at the very low stakes. Failing to realize that often turns out to be an expensive mistake. Low stakes tournies are the absolut loosest games you can find. It's funny how there is literature on this subject, actual books that outline strategies for the smaller stakes, yet this forum struggles to recognize how much weight the buy-in carries in making a decision. Before posting on a HH thread, I always look at the buy-in. At times it may look improper, and some may think "what does the buy-in have to do?" or "it doesn't matter, the answer should be the same regardless of the buy-in", and so forth. To a certain extent this might be true, but certainly not at the micro buy-ins.

One of the best ever definitions of "intelligence", is that it's "the ability to adapt to the environment you're surrounded by". I think this applies to poker also :).

If you go through the HH's in this site, you'll see the difference. It's right there in front of us, threads like this one :https://www.cardschat.com/forum/tournament-hand-analysis-51/early-mtt-jj-facing-action-pf-97557/ .

Going back to your hand, and I know this is results oriented, you lost a chance to double up because had you shoved yankeedime folds and the OR will call with his 7's :) .
 
L

Leebold05

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I don't know if there is a wrong way to play jacks. I usually trust my gut instinct and hope i'm right.
 
dresturn2

dresturn2

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Raise

I would put in a raise probably 7 times the blind here just to make a point that i have something and if they call with something weak you can still get away from a flop that has high cards against 3 or more opponents.
 
Y

young hova

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first post in a while...

I got two options on this hand, one main idea is with Joe, as in you just flat out push. pick up the blinds and the raise right than and there and be satisfied with that. Like Joe said, you gotta play it how it goes because the people at the low stakes don't think how a player that studies the game does, they don't understand facets of the game that we would consider simple to understand.

Unlike seemingly everyone else here, if I'm not pushing I'm gonna simply call and not worry whether 4 or 5 people call, in this case they didn't, but with 2 30 blind limpers to a 150 raise, I doubt in most cases you will have 4 or 5 to the flop (thats including the blinds).

I'd call because, like Joe said, 3 betting ain't gonna do you much with jacks when you have players sandwiched between you and the raiser, you might give them a good price to call if they like their hand and your already out of position. If you raise, I would say no less than 7 times out of 10 (this is just the way I play) Your gonna need to bet the flop, and in this case, I wouldve bet something at the very least. Its good that you didn't in this case, but what happens in the event neither player hit you have the winning hand and the button raiser bets a sizeable bet because it was checked around on the flop. Potentially you'd be risking your whole stack in that situation if you call and it be hard for you to know where your at this early in the tourney.

So I call here because I respect the other players raise, and if the flop comes the way I like it than I can check-raise him, I think calling here is REALLY DECEPTIVE, and I think thats a good thing. See as everyone else here tells you to raise, most likely your gonna expect a raise yourself when someone else has jacks. By you just calling he probably doesn't respect your hand, so if the flop comes anything that doesn't give him a set and makes his hand look good, your hand will be looking 2x better. If the flop comes in a way you don't like it, you lose 150 instead of your reraise added.

All in all I say this: if your not gonna push and you have a style where you limit continuation betting to scare cards (in this case the overcard), your better off calling, because its a good chance you will end up checking, and probably folding to a position bet due to overcards. So save yourself the chips; just take it slow...you'll have better opportunities than this to accumulate chips, whether the tournament is turbo or not.
 
U

unlucky79

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Good old Johnny boy's the hardest hand in poker to play in my book. I usually raise JJ like normal 3 to 5 x bb but if something higher hits the board play by feel. This hand seems to always lose me money in ring games as I dont raise them real hard. Now if Im late position all limpers sb I push all in if I have a dominant stack over everyone else. If Im avg stack I raise it 4xx in tourney play. Regardless you have to play this hand strong to limit the amount of callers. I will say 99 % of the time you will get a call with someone with either kq jq or Ax hands so be carefull and expect to release them if any of them cards hit on the flop.:icon_sant
 
NineLions

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As joe says, adjusting for the level, and to some degree, the site too, is important. Early in a tourney at this kinda level, raising would be my last choice.

First choice, by a slim margin, would be shoving. JJ is a premium hand, is probably leading, and you might take it down, or get called by A2/44 etc. You may also get called by QQ afraid to raise after some limpers were already in, but then you're going to lose to them if the flop is low anyway.

Second choice is to flat call, see what comes on the flop. When there's a K like you got, I either rep a K and see if someone has one, or more likely check/fold. It's early; I'm willing to let JJ go.

Last choice would be to raise, because, as is evident, there is little fold equity in raising when you've already got people in at these levels. Unless you've got AA/KK, when you've got people already in preflop, you're not going to lose very many with any standard raise.
 
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