JJ 25BB 3bet shove pre

[Killdalimper]

Are we too deep to 3bet shove here ?


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 1,200/2,400 (300 ante) - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 117,128 (49 bb)
MP: 57,018 (24 bb)
MP+1: 22,884 (10 bb)
CO: 21,132 (9 bb)
BU: 43,955 (18 bb)
SB: 54,347 (23 bb)
BB (Hero): 63,660 (27 bb)

Pre-Flop: (5,700) Hero is BB with J♠ J♥
1 fold, MP raises to 4,800, 4 players fold, Hero 3-bets to 63,360 (all-in), MP calls 51,918 (all-in)

Flop: (116,736) 6♣ 4♥ 5♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (116,736) 2♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (116,736) A♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 116,736

Spoiler

Showdown:
BB (Hero) shows J♠ J♥ (a pair of Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 11%, Turn: 9%, River: 0%)

MP shows A♥ A♣ (three of a kind, Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 89%, Turn: 91%, River: 100%)

MP wins 116,736

 

[ph_il]

24 bbs effective. 3bet shoving is fine.

 

[Killdalimper]

24 bbs effective. 3bet shoving is fine.

Is there a scenario where we'd 3bet like 3x and see a flop?

 

[Fjarri]

Definitely not too deep. At 24BBs effective, you can't 3-bet effectively without pot committing yourself. Your call range in this spot should be very wide for all the equity you're getting, while your push range should be something like 99+, suited broadways and AQo.

This might change if you're affected by ICM, but even in quite extreme cases, JJ is definitely a push.

 

[D_godfather]

yes i am shoving not 3 betting, shove uses max fold equity so sometimes you take the pot there and then.

Maybe 3x AA if you want action, although you might want to play AA and JJ the same if you have observant opponents.

 

[300HPGOD]

The jam in this situation is correct. Look at the alternatives and see if we like any of them.

1. Fold pre flop. Ludicrous idea unless you are Mike Postle and know the villain has Aces here. Folding Jacks here just really isnt an option.


2. Call behind. This would leave us with a hand that usually will face an overcard flop on the board and puts us in a tough spot since leading is awkward and if we do not do that then we are facing a C bet most likely that we never really know we are ahead or behind. We would probably have to call that C bet which would commit us. If two overcards flop we can safely fold but that is a very passive line.

3. 3 bet to 3x or 4x. Both of these raise amounts leave us in a position where we have to C bet the flop no matter what comes out since if overcard or overcards come down we need to rep them. Otherwise we are checking here which looks pretty weak and we will usually get outplayed. C betting would really pot commit us with the raise and bet on the flop.

 

[antonis32123]

With 15-20 bigs I would also shove , with better pot odds I might shove IP for more bigs than just 20 . big blinds . Or else call , and see a flop , especially on the BB , a 3bet by me and a call by him would put me in awkward position , probably losing not only one but 7-8 more blinds , and with 27 , maybe a blind increase , that I would not like As far as I have seen 30 blinds is a lot of blinds to shove online without a very good hand , I wouldn\t choose JJ with 27 blinds oop as a very good hand for my games

 

[Jon Poker]

Too shallow to 3bet and try to navigate post flop - never 3betting with intention to fold - this is a super standard rejam preflop for 25BB - just a cooler. Nothing we can do. Standard spot, the hand plays itself.

 

[fundiver199]

I think, its kind of borderline, when he only mini-raise. But I am never 3-betting here to either fold to a jam or create a just over 1 SPR pot, where I am OOP with a hand like JJ. So the only other option is to just call. On this runout the chips would have gone in post anyway though, so in that sense this is just a standard cooler.

 

[thehangdude]

I would probably 3bet 12,000. This gives him a chance to call, raise, or fold. It also allows you to narrow his range, while still holding 20BB. A quick all in raise from villain might give us pause. Evaluate where we are in the tournament, and are we wanting to risk it all on this pair?

That said, JJ on a 7 handed table is usually good enough to go (or call) all in.

 

[Mib3653]

Just had same hand situation. Me with 28bb in the cut off with Jj. Folds to me and I lead out with 3bb. Small blind shoves 12 bb. I call, face ak and lose to a big flop. Could I have folded after the shove?

 

[puzzlefish]

Just had same hand situation. Me with 28bb in the cut off with Jj. Folds to me and I lead out with 3bb. Small blind shoves 12 bb. I call, face ak and lose to a big flop. Could I have folded after the shove?

I think for another 9bb it's not worth folding. Now if it was for the rest of your stack, I would argue the range is pretty strong playing that way from SB and maybe you would see less AK and more QQ+.

 

[fundiver199]

Just had same hand situation. Me with 28bb in the cut off with Jj. Folds to me and I lead out with 3bb. Small blind shoves 12 bb. I call, face ak and lose to a big flop. Could I have folded after the shove?

With 28BB effective you should be opening smaller like 2,5BB or even 2,2BB. And no JJ is not a fold to a 12BB rejam. Its nowhere near a fold actually, since most if not all pocket pairs is a call. The hands, where we might need to use software to be sure, is 22-44 not JJ. This one was just a standard "flip", which you lost. And of course thats part of the game. We win some and lose some, and in the long run it all evens out

 

[MK_]

Wow thought it was only me who jammed jacks right into aces, but nothing wrong with that

 

[eetenor]

Are we too deep to 3bet shove here ?


Winning Poker, Hold'em No Limit - 1,200/2,400 (300 ante) - 7 players
Replay this hand on CardsChat

UTG: 117,128 (49 bb)
MP: 57,018 (24 bb)
MP+1: 22,884 (10 bb)
CO: 21,132 (9 bb)
BU: 43,955 (18 bb)
SB: 54,347 (23 bb)
BB (Hero): 63,660 (27 bb)

Pre-Flop: (5,700) Hero is BB with J♠ J♥
1 fold, MP raises to 4,800, 4 players fold, Hero 3-bets to 63,360 (all-in), MP calls 51,918 (all-in)

Flop: (116,736) 6♣ 4♥ 5♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: (116,736) 2♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (116,736) A♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 116,736

Spoiler

Showdown:
BB (Hero) shows J♠ J♥ (a pair of Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 19%, Flop: 11%, Turn: 9%, River: 0%)

MP shows A♥ A♣ (three of a kind, Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 81%, Flop: 89%, Turn: 91%, River: 100%)

MP wins 116,736

This hand is is a very cool GTO -GTO adapted or straight exploit strategy study hand -
So GTO strat JJ is a 3 bet vs what would be a Low Jack range based on # of players
GTO adjusted would mean we would adjust our range to the fact that Villain is playing early position GTO ranges not LJ=shove
Exploit would be the V maybe playing tighter than GTO preflop but also not GTO post flop- Not mixing bluffs and value or even not betting full value ranges or over folding or over value betting top pair-

One of the keys to shoving JJ here is that the V will make it difficult for you to realize JJ's full equity but if that is not happening post flop then the shoves EV decreases- combine that with the fact the V is not calling GTO ranges to the shove and the JJ shove decreases even more in EV- VS most V we are never getting better QQ+ to fold and we are often getting too much to fold preflop that we expect to get value from calling.

 

[Igor Popadyk]

often found myself in a similar situation, if there are no statistics on the player, then from an early opening range is strong enough, and with a high probability your push will be called and often go to the coin, and rarely wake up older

 

[Poker Orifice]

Just had same hand situation. Me with 28bb in the cut off with Jj. Folds to me and I lead out with 3bb. Small blind shoves 12 bb. I call, face ak and lose to a big flop. Could I have folded after the shove?

Trying not to lose is a poor strategy if you're looking to win. (fwiw, it's not the same as the other example, you're in a spot where you're raise/calling(folding) vs. the other who is 3bai .. and your's is for 12 effective bb's. Oh, & raise/calling there all day long with the JJ in that spot)

 

[dallam]

This is the most stack-wise thing you could do considering your hand and the stack seizes. And we can definitely run into some higher pockets time to time just as you did, but also making fold some of those which could arrive post-flop or bluffing you out, since the position disadvantage and the tournament life pressure.

 

[rock0001]

with only 27 bb left shoving with jj is the best play and unfortunately villain had aces and beat your jacks but your play was correct.

 

[johnnylawford]

Is there a scenario where we'd 3bet like 3x and see a flop?

You're fine in cEV with this shove I'd imagine, though there are ICM spots where you would have a nai 3-bet/calling range with JJ like in the examples below. In general, once you're close to the bubble, or deeper in the tournament you're response to an open is going to change quite a bit to focus more on stack preservation unless you're covering the opener by a substantial amount.

What was the tournament format? Was it regular blind speed/non-PKO? That would also impact how you play (See the ICM PKO example).

 

[feisas7991]

oop we just jamming here for ease of play.
cant really come up on a rush vs what type of player we would want to induce apart of maybe atc maniac who would pile on you his entire range somehow
Hope this helps and Good Luck!