Interesting Move - donkish or revolutionary?

soccerfreakjj10

soccerfreakjj10

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Let me know what you think. I will explain the logic behind this play, which is a few simple bullet points, after some initial feedback and speculation as to this logic. And just because there is logic behind it doesn't mean its right...

full tilt poker Game #6501111573: $11 + $1 Sit & Go (Turbo) (49418713), Table 1 - 100/200 - No Limit Hold'em - 23:45:41 ET - 2008/05/20
Seat 1: buabraeumer (2,000)
Seat 3: colonwoman (2,945)
Seat 4: Pronto7852 (990)
Seat 5: cathulu (925)
Seat 6: soccerfreakjj10 (2,140)
soccerfreakjj10 posts the small blind of 100
buabraeumer posts the big blind of 200
The button is in seat #5
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to soccerfreakjj10 [8h 6h]
colonwoman calls 200
Pronto7852 folds
cathulu calls 200
soccerfreakjj10 calls 100
buabraeumer checks
*** FLOP *** [Kh As 5h]
soccerfreakjj10 checks
buabraeumer checks
colonwoman checks
cathulu bets 725, and is all in
soccerfreakjj10 raises to 1,940, and is all in
buabraeumer folds
colonwoman folds
soccerfreakjj10 shows [8h 6h]
cathulu shows [Ac 3c]
Uncalled bet of 1,215 returned to soccerfreakjj10
*** TURN *** [Kh As 5h] [4h]
*** RIVER *** [Kh As 5h 4h] [7c]
soccerfreakjj10 shows a flush, King high
cathulu shows a pair of Aces
soccerfreakjj10 wins the pot (2,250) with a flush, King high
cathulu stands up
 
t1riel

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Going all in on a flush draw? It's not even a high flush draw. I'm a bit puzzled by that move.
 
soccerfreakjj10

soccerfreakjj10

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Going all in on a flush draw? It's not even a high flush draw. I'm a bit puzzled by that move.

I think classifying this move as "going all in on a flush draw" is a little to vague for what actually happened.
 
Jack Daniels

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Fold PF (unless of course your "poker gut" told you to do it ;))

How about we classify it as "reraise all in to isolate on nothing but a draw and not even a good draw where I am most likely behind everytime in this situation and have to pray that I suckout and hit my flush while hoping my opponent didn't push equally badly on a flush draw but a higher one than mine".

:)
 
soccerfreakjj10

soccerfreakjj10

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Fold PF (unless of course your "poker gut" told you to do it ;))

How about we classify it as "reraise all in to isolate on nothing but a draw and not even a good draw where I am most likely behind everytime in this situation and have to pray that I suckout and hit my flush while hoping my opponent didn't push equally badly on a flush draw but a higher one than mine".

:)
geeze I don't think that is necessary I obviously have rationale behind it I think that is a little cruel for this forum. I tried something new, and instead of embracing my new idea and discussing it with an open mind, you totally just trash me and make me sound like an idiot. Here is my rationale why. I hope you see that I am not just a random donk.

1. After the two other players had checked I was at least 95 percent sure they would fold to my all in bet, they were not the slow playing top pair type, the only hand I was worried about was 55.

2. If I do indeed get them to fold, then I am paying 725 chips to win 1525 chips, a little better than 2 to 1. I feel the opponent could be on a total bluff at this point with his stack and the chips in the pot, which means my 8 or 6 could be live. Even if it is not, and my opponent has 1 pair such as the hand i he has, I am nearly 40 percent to win the hand. This would give me the correct odds to call (assuming it is heads up.) Also the fact that I only have 10 bbs is a huge consideration (I would never make this play with lower blinds.)

3. If my push gets called by someone slow playing two pair (A5,) I am still about 35 percent to win, with nearly 3 to 1 pot odds - correct mathematically. Only hand I am way behind with is a set, but I still have plenty of outs.

4. If I win become a dominant chip leader, with a great chance of making the money and a good chance of taking the entire sng down.

5. If I lose heads up, I have around 1200 chips with 100/200 blinds, still enough chips to play with.

6. I am avoiding a flip for all my chips by making this play, thus increasing my overall tournament equity by not having my tournament life on the line. For example, I would rather be in this situation for a smallish portion of my chips, then having QQ vs. AK for all my chips.

I did end up winning the hand as you can see, and with my powerful chip stack that resulted took the entire sng down.
 
soccerfreakjj10

soccerfreakjj10

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Fold PF (unless of course your "poker gut" told you to do it ;))

i don't think folding preflop is the correct play here, considering i am getting 7 to 1 odds on my call with an excellent drawing hand. with one limper I am probably folding, but with two limpers and a passive BB, i think it is profitable to fill up.
 
OzExorcist

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Here's a thought:

If you had've just flat called and had one of the other villains come along for the ride too, you might've been getting about the right pot odds.

Really don't know what you were going for with this one, TBH.

(Edit - OK, I know what you were going for now because we posted at the same time)
 
royalburrito24

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I do not really agree with the shove, however, the rationale behind it from soccer seems to be valid. I am now really viewing this move as a preference rather than something that is set in stone.
 
soccerfreakjj10

soccerfreakjj10

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Here's a thought:

If you had've just flat called and had one of the other villains come along for the ride too, you might've been getting about the right pot odds.

I think the problem with that is too often the 3rd villain that would be in the hand would put me all in on the turn, and if it isn't a heart I would be in for a very difficult decision.

Also, I think there are hands that are beating me that would fold to my push, but call if I flat call, another weak ace, or a pair of kings or possibly a draw. Thus, by pushing all in I do have some FE.
 
OzExorcist

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I think the problem with that is too often the 3rd villain that would be in the hand would put me all in on the turn, and if it isn't a heart I would be in for a very difficult decision.

Also, I think there are hands that are beating me that would fold to my push, but call if I flat call, another weak ace, or a pair of kings or possibly a draw. Thus, by pushing all in I do have some FE.

True, by shoving you do gain some fold equity over the other two players. I don't know that it accomplishes all that much though, because you're gaining fold equity in an empty side pot.

You've already pretty much acknowledged you need to hit your flush to win the main pot - getting some extra money in there from a third player won't hurt your chances of winning the pot any, but it will improve your payout odds.
 
soccerfreakjj10

soccerfreakjj10

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True, by shoving you do gain some fold equity over the other two players. I don't know that it accomplishes all that much though, because you're gaining fold equity in an empty side pot.

You've already pretty much acknowledged you need to hit your flush to win the main pot - getting some extra money in there from a third player won't hurt your chances of winning the pot any, but it will improve your payout odds.

Hmm good points. I think I would rather have this pot without my tournament life is not at stake with merely a flush draw. That is interesting, what flat calling would do there though... By do that, I am not committing all my chips, and by pushing I do. But by flat calling I think more often or not if someone else calls behind they will put me in on the turn. By pushing all in I:

1. Gain a bit of fold equity
2. Guarantee I see 2 cards with the right odds.

Interesting indeed... I love thinking about poker hands
 
WVHillbilly

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You don't need fold equity here and without a sidepot it's doubtful you get pushed out on the turn. So calling MIGHT get you better odds to chase your flush and you'll almost certainly get to see both cards. You're also not folding out an Ace here. People don't play weak Aces to fold them when they hit.

How about revolutionarily donkish???
 
S93

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Well i whould exually prefer a call(or a fold) here,but hey thats just me.
DISCLAIMER! All math done by me should be approched with caution:p
Your 31-34% against 2pars
20-25% against sets
3-20% against bigger flush draw
and about 40% against one pair.
Your pot odds are a little better then 2-1 just about what you need for a flush draw so a call is justyfied(spelling?), if you just call or lose the hand your still in ok shape not great, but with a chance of cashing.
But i dont get the push,what hand are folding to your all-in that are calling the first all-in?
Sure the push gives u some fold equity but u dont really need it in a dry sit pot.

This sure aint the classice HH thats posted here every day.
+probs for soccer for doing some thing new

How about revolutionarily donkish???
Viva de donkalutionary!
 
B

Bentheman87

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Mathematically it was correct to call or push, so good play. Soccerfreak is getting exactly 2.1:1 pot odds, and he had 9 outs, making him a 1.86:1 underdog for two cards to come. Let's pretend this was heads up, Soccerfreak should call the shove 100% of the time since we get to see two cards and the odds of winning are better than the pot odds. Only time it would be incorrect is if villian has a higher flush draw, but this is so rare it's safe to assume we have 9 solid outs.

But this hand gets complicated since there are more players in. I think you should have just called, because it would be great to get another player with an ace or king to call, it doesn't lower our equity in the pot (our chance of winning the showdown). So if there's another player who may call if we just call, but fold if we raise, then calling is better since our pot odds will improve to about 3:1.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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[ ] interesting
[ ] donkish
[ ] revolutionary
 
F

feitr

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Yea absolutely nothing wrong with the preflop call...getting too good odds to lay down anything but absolute and complete crap at that stage.

Rest of the play is a little hard to critique. If you had flat called you could have got another caller and greatly increased your pot odds while probably got a free ride to showdown because of the dry side pot. Regardless of the number of callers you were likely to have 9 clean outs for the best hand. However, if you flat called, and a player behind you shoved well you are priced in to call but now it is for your entire stack. But seeing as you were very very near to the bubble i don't think that any players to act are likely to try and shove you off of the pot. I think both calling/shoving are justifiable plays.
 
L

LUCIUS VARENUS

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Its a bad preflop call because as your M decreases, the need for some kind of high card or pair hand increases. There are no more implied odds, there is no room to draw on multiple streets, and so you must simply hit a big enough hand on the flop to commit your chips with. A pair of eights or sixes is not going to be good enough, even if its the top pair, since a lot of the time you either are outflopped already, or someone is drawing quite live against you. You might think you are getting the right odds, but you're not getting the right odds to flop two pair+/OESD/FDraw/preferably both. With a pair of flopped Aces or Kings (no ace on flop), you can commit your 10 big blinds because it is so much less likely that you will be beaten. Your 86s is better off in a cash game or for a raise in late position with a high chance to win with a bluff.

I don't like the isolation since you have no hand to protect. If the other players had a hand they would've bet the all in player's amount anyway, so I don't think you should worry about being blasted out on the turn. Especially with no side pot!
 
F

feitr

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He is getting 7:1 to call preflop so it is a perfectly standard call...
 
c9h13no3

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True, by shoving you do gain some fold equity over the other two players. I don't know that it accomplishes all that much though, because you're gaining fold equity in an empty side pot.
Not to mention that if your opponents have no equity in the pot (since they have nothing) we're not gaining any equity....
 
OzExorcist

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Not to mention that if your opponents have no equity in the pot (since they have nothing) we're not gaining any equity....

Before they fold they've got a (probably very small) amount of equity in the main pot - it's arguable as to whether we gain anything from this though: the more likely outcome from folding the other players out is we increase the all-in villain's equity.
 
L

LUCIUS VARENUS

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He is getting 7:1 to call preflop so it is a perfectly standard call...

This is not a 'standard call'! OP needs the 100 chips with which to shove. Would he rather double through to 3600 or 4000? 7:1 is not the right price to flop a big enough hand to move with. 10 big blinds is not a situation in which calling is an option, there must be 100% aggressive action - raising (preferably all in) or folding. In my opinion :)
 
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