I think I just BLUFF shoved for VALUE ?!? with AAs ?!?

[theANMATOR]

I'm being a little silly here - but is Value bluffing a thing? Anyone care to explain - or poke fun.

1.10 buy-in 1k gtd.
We are ITM with 40 remaining out of a field of 700+. I pick up Aces in the SB with a standard TAG opener UTG+2 to 2.1bb.
He has 35bb and I only have 15 after I make the call.

I elected to just call here because there was a short stack (9bb) in the big blind I thought might jam any Ace, any pockets , but to my surprise guy just calls. He must be listening to the crock of crap going about on defending your blinds wide regardless of stack size.

Anyway - we are 3 ways to the flop which was a total blank board - something like T 4 2 rainbow.
I elect to check hoping for a small bet from the pre-flop opener so I could in turn tiny raise.

Sadly it checked all around. The turn completed the rainbow with a Queen, so I decided here to bet out small. something like 2.4bb.
Big blind player folded and the original preflop opener tank called - like 20 seconds. Now I know this could mean anything right - he was peeing, he ran to fill up his coffee cup, he had to let the dog out, or he is multi-tabling and - for any reason was making decisions on other tables. But - IDK (poker physic!!) it felt like this guy did not have a queen. I felt good about the call - and figured I was in a good spot to take this pot down.

The river is another queen. I have like 11bb left and I decided to check. This guy again tanks for a long time before betting out - it seemed like a large bet (from memory) it was like 8.75bb.

I decided to jam - because I really didn't believe him. The only thing he could have was a queen - or a slow played set - that was now a boat, but I really thought this guy was full-of-it.

It was one of the fastest insta folds I think I've ever seen online. LOL

The smart play was to just call - but I thought possibly he would also think of me - this guy doesn't have a queen - and call me down with some medium pair like 99s or TTs.


Anyway - Value bluffin with AAs - seems to be a thing.

 

[acemenow]

IDK On the one hand what are you trying to get him to fold on this "bluff" (basically top pair is what you have, not that he knows that), seems like he should only be calling with better or maybe a draw but you mentioned a pretty dry board. Unless you feel he is holding something like 10x with a broadway kicker and would call to a shove.

And on the other hand your only response here is to reraise or call and I don't see how calling is going to get him to call if you lead out the river.

Soif I am reading this right I think you played it pretty well. Now to see how destroyed I get with other opinions 🤣

 

[StealTheButton]

I don't like the shove on the river. Only reason to do this is to make a worse hand call or a better hand fold. You are not going to force a fold if he has 3 queens or better. If he was drawing for something like a wheel with A3 he is not going to pay you off.

After re-reading this it looks like he bet about 9 of his remaining 11 big blinds on the river. These are hard to follow without a visual. Yes, here the jam is fine, lol. It is just bizarre that he would fold with so few chips left, or make that play in the first place.

You should have also 3 bet pre-flop. You said the opener was tight-aggressive so you knew he had a hand and could have gotten more of your stack in. I don't think this trying to trap with multiple players is ever a good idea. Only time I would ever do it would be against a single player who knew me well enough that this would be so out of character for me.

 

[rastapapolos]

The only thing that I don't like pre-flop is giving the BB enough odds to call with marginal hands, he may catch up the flop and your equity goes down in a multiway pot.
If villain had a Q and he folded for any reason like a bad kicker or put you on a full house (In these limits I don't think so), we can talk about a bluff.
But if he had a T he just folded the worst hand (this is not a bluff since you hold the best hand).

 

[theANMATOR]

I pretty much agree with everyone views on this.
The best play (in my opinion) would be to min 3bet here, cbet the flop small and jam turn. Everyone who spoke about the preflop and the river play - are all pretty much spot on.
I'm quite certain villain never folded a Queen, and the best play from my view was to just call the river bet. But if I would have played preflop correctly - we would have never even seen the river. LOL
I really don't know what I was thinking during this hand - might have had one too many bud lights - and thought - HEY LETS GET tricky!! Dumb

Thanks for all the input fellas.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
Obviously the standard play is to 3-bet AA, and in general we should not have much of a SB flatting range with 15BB effective. But as an exploit I can get on board with this flat obviously hoping, that BB jam, and even if he dont, the SPR is very low, and AA is usually pretty easy to play even from out of position.

Flop
This one is actually kind of close. On one side its not so great, if it get checked around, because it gives both opponents a free chance to draw out on you. And I dont think, the preflop raiser is going to do a lot of C-betting multiway against two short stacked opponents. On the other side it can also be fine to allow hands like AQ or KQ to catch up to a second best pair. So I dont hate checking here, but leading would also be fine to make sure, at least some chips go in on the flop.

Turn
Definitely need to bet for value now and start building a pot.

River
The turned top card pairing is pretty bad for you, since he could definitely have it. I also think, that if he had a hand like JJ or TX, he would most likely have bet the flop. So I dont see a lot of worse hands in his range, that will still call another bet, and therefore I agree with checking. I also agree with check-calling, since he could have a busted draw or some other random bluff. But even though his bet is almost all your remaining chips, I dont see any point in raising. He either have trips or better, or he is bluffing, and if he is bluffing, he is just going to fold even getting a good price.

 

[Matt_Burns88]

I prefer just jamming preflop here. Whenever there is a raise 10x or more than our stack we should seriously consider jamming. There is certainly some logic in calling if you're expecting the BB to jam quite regularly in this spot, but as a general rule, I'd just shove. Especially as you say the open raiser is TAG, his range is likely going to have a lot of hands that will call off here.

Flop you can go either way of check or bet small. Again this would depend on opponent tendencies; if it's likely to check round, I would bet and if we expect the OR to c-bet regularly I would check/call.

Turn you must start betting now, otherwise you risk not being able to play for stacks, with a premium hand.

River is certainly a dirty card for you, but I think you have to just check call. By checking you induce bluffs from all his missed draws, whereas he almost certainly folds to a bet. I don't like the shove because what is he likely calling you with that is worse than your two pair? KK and JJ aren't going to be in his range as played, nor are most Tx hands. He might get here with medium pairs like 88 or 77, but he's likely to just check behind rather than bet the river and hope to win at showdown. So you're either going to get him to fold his bluffs, or call with trips or even some slow played boats.

Daniel Negreanu once said on one of his masterclass videos "there's no such thing as a value bluff, you just didn't know what you were doing". This might sound a little bit harsh, but his point is that you're either value betting or bluffing - you can't do both at the same time.

 

[fundiver199]

Daniel Negreanu once said on one of his masterclass videos "there's no such thing as a value bluff, you just didn't know what you were doing". This might sound a little bit harsh, but his point is that you're either value betting or bluffing - you can't do both at the same time.

On the river that is 100% true, since we either have the best hand or not, and people will of course fold their bad hands before their good hands. Blockers can change that slightly, but in a situation like this nobody will call with two pair and fold trips, because that makes absolutely no sense. But just to be a bit nitpicky, there are actually situations on the flop and especially turn, where a bet can get better hands to fold and worse hands to call. This is because, people will usually tend to dump bad made hands, that cant really improve but continue with draws, that have implied odds.

If for instance the board is KJ3-8 with two spades, and we bet with 22, we will most likely get better hands like 55-77 to fold but worse hands like QT or A5 of spades to continue. We are still bluffing though, because while we are ahead of some hands, that continue, we are behind the range as a whole, so we want our opponent to fold. And most likely we should not be turning 22 into a bluff, so DNEG is still kind of right with his "did´t know what you were doing" comment

 

[Matt_Burns88]

I prefer just jamming preflop here. Whenever there is a raise 10x or more than our stack we should seriously consider jamming. There is certainly some logic in calling if you're expecting the BB to jam quite regularly in this spot, but as a general rule, I'd just shove. Especially as you say the open raiser is TAG, his range is likely going to have a lot of hands that will call off here.

I just realised I got this a bit twisted...what I meant was whenever there is a raise where our stack is 10x or less than the raise. So, if the raise was to 2.2bb, if we have 22bb or less, we should consider jamming.

 

[Matt_Burns88]

On the river that is 100% true, since we either have the best hand or not, and people will of course fold their bad hands before their good hands. Blockers can change that slightly, but in a situation like this nobody will call with two pair and fold trips, because that makes absolutely no sense. But just to be a bit nitpicky, there are actually situations on the flop and especially turn, where a bet can get better hands to fold and worse hands to call. This is because, people will usually tend to dump bad made hands, that cant really improve but continue with draws, that have implied odds.

If for instance the board is KJ3-8 with two spades, and we bet with 22, we will most likely get better hands like 55-77 to fold but worse hands like QT or A5 of spades to continue. We are still bluffing though, because while we are ahead of some hands, that continue, we are behind the range as a whole, so we want our opponent to fold. And most likely we should not be turning 22 into a bluff, so DNEG is still kind of right with his "did´t know what you were doing" comment

Yes, I think he was probably referring to river bets, but I have not seen the full video so can't be sure.

 

[AKQ]

how does 92 have value ?
The GTO solver gets 92 value by bluffing
37 has bluff value
bluffs dont get called
so bluff value with AA is awful theoretically
I woulda seen the turn bet and called,
then mabey if you donk bet river it might LOOK like a river bluff
or give him a 2nd chance to steal

 

[makisaa]

Practically you tried to hide your aces and make him bet more. I think when you have aces you play aggressively with at least a good raise at the beginning, so that to reveal his intentions and because you have only a pair. If he has a draw the possibilities to make him fold are more.

 

[AKQ]

this is my favorite of your value bluffs