Did I make a mistake or was this just a cooler?

[noLatenzy]

Hi people! I want to share this hand I played in a $3.30 tournament, this is the final table.
I would like to know if I did the right moves, I think it was a ''cooler'' hand.

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/724G5Ws9Z

 

[HerbPuffer]

I think I am folding that PF.

 

[fundiver199]

Preflop
85s is a pretty loose defend against a 2,5BB open from EP, and in general I would lean towards just letting it go. Given that this was a final table, you also need to consider stack sizes and ICM. In this spot 5 players had significantly less chips than you, and in that situation you should try to not get involved with the 3 bigger stacks, and you should especially not get involved with a junky hand out of position.

Flop
As played you kind of have to peel at least one, when you flop a pair, but its kind of hatefull, because you are really mostly hoping, he is bluffing, AND that he dont get there, AND that he shuts it down. And this is part of the reason, why its better to just give up that 1bb preflop and let him have it.

Turn
This card doomed you. When he opened from EP I dont think, K2-K8 is in his range, so you are only behind to 8 combos of sets, and he can have a bunch of draws, top pair or AA, which he will play like this.

Conclusion
Yes postflop was a cooler. But postflop should never have happened. So its a cooler, you created yourself by being to loose preflop in a spot, where there was so much value in just folding and letting someone else collide first. This is the main thing to take away from the hand.

 

[barags]

Definitely unlucky that 8 came up on turn but you shouldnt be in that hand at all when he raises 5bb preflop.

 

[fundiver199]

Definitely unlucky that 8 came up on turn but you shouldnt be in that hand at all when he raises 5bb preflop.

It was only a 2,5BB raise, but I still think, Hero should fold. Maybe Hero is getting the right pot odds to call based on pure equity, but with 3 more rounds of betting still to come, this is not even half the story. Its way more important to consider implied odds, reverse implied odds and ICM-implications of getting involved with another large stack.

And a hand like 85s just does not play very well, when Hero is out of position. It will flop a second or third pair against top pair or an overpair, it will hit dominated flushes, and it will even sometimes be coolered, when it makes two pair or trips.

Sure a hand like 87s suffer from many of the same problems, but at least it has a better chance of making a straight. So while I would probably defend here with 87s, when it gets down to suited 2-gappers, I think, Hero is just defending to wide in a ICM-situation, which literally scream for the opposite.

 

[barags]

You are right, I've seen it wrong, my apologies

It was only a 2,5BB raise, but I still think, Hero should fold. Maybe Hero is getting the right pot odds to call based on pure equity, but with 3 more rounds of betting still to come, this is not even half the story. Its way more important to consider implied odds, reverse implied odds and ICM-implications of getting involved with another large stack.

And a hand like 85s just does not play very well, when Hero is out of position. It will flop a second or third pair against top pair or an overpair, it will hit dominated flushes, and it will even sometimes be coolered, when it makes two pair or trips.

Sure a hand like 87s suffer from many of the same problems, but at least it has a better chance of making a straight. So while I would probably defend here with 87s, when it gets down to suited 2-gappers, I think, Hero is just defending to wide in a ICM-situation, which literally scream for the opposite.

 

[1nsomn1a]

I think calling on the preflop was a mistake, and everything else is a consequence of this error.

 

[Baldy86]

the call on the flop was a mistake in my opinion . the call preflop is also not exactly something I would do

 

[Joe]

Hi people! I want to share this hand I played in a $3.30 tournament, this is the final table.
I would like to know if I did the right moves, I think it was a ''cooler'' hand.

https://www.cardschat.com/replayer/724G5Ws9Z

Yea, it's a bit of a tough break, you kind of get caught in no man's land by playing this hand as if it was during the normal stages of play rather than a FT...

Your only two real chances of getting away are preflop and on the flop.

Fundiver made some good points as to the main things you've missed while playing this hand..

ICM and stack sizes at the FT...

When we have middling stack we ideally want to avoid going up against opponents who have us covered if possible, and when we do go up against a covering stack, we're loathe to go all-in with less than the nuts..

Generally speaking, personally, when I defend wide like this- I'm looking to make two pair or better on the flop, or at the very least an inside straight/flush draw.

Continuing when we've defended wide preflop with bottom or middle pair on a wet flop is a risky play, considering we can already be dead to runner-runner and catching the turn can doom us, as demonstrated in this example.

If once you make the 2p you switch to check-call rather than check-shove, there's a chance he worries you'll fold to the river all-in and puts out a smaller value river bet instead of shoving. If you call instead of raise that river bet then, whilst your stack is crippled, you're still alive.

The threat of the set is a tricky nuance to factor.

The other part of my brain thinks with how wide people are defending the BB these days and suited, connected cards facing what (if I remember correctly) was barely a min raise- It's a bit of a cooler. You even have a blocker to 88, LOL.

To conclude:

Usually I would argue this is a cooler/setup hand and and there was little to be done, but in a FT environment I think we have to play with added caution when heads up against bigger stacks, especially when there's a good few smaller stacks left.

When we make a hand that we can't fold in situations like this, look to get to showdown rather than getting it all-in asap.

Nice one for posting the hand, it was a brutal spot for you, but very interesting one with important considerations- thank you.

#BLNT!

 

[fundiver199]

If once you make the 2p you switch to check-call rather than check-shove, there's a chance he worries you'll fold to the river all-in and puts out a smaller value river bet instead of shoving. If you call instead of raise that river bet then, whilst your stack is crippled, you're still alive.

This was also my first thought, when I saw the hand, but then I noticed, that Villain actually overbet the turn. There is pretty much no chance, a set will not jam the river, when only a half pot sized bet is left, and Hero called an overbet on the turn. Also Heros hand is very vulnerable, and with so many draws available, a lot of rivers are going to be tough, plus Hero is out of position. So as played I agree with check-jamming the turn. The chance to get out was preflop or maybe even on the flop.

 

[Mahdi]

sort of cooler, sort of mistake there, but defenetly shoud`ve never gone all-in just with 2 pairs on this board at FT when there are people with shorter stacks than yours, only if for you was matter 1st place and nothing else

 

[Joe]

This was also my first thought, when I saw the hand, but then I noticed, that Villain actually overbet the turn. There is pretty much no chance, a set will not jam the river, when only a half pot sized bet is left, and Hero called an overbet on the turn. Also Heros hand is very vulnerable, and with so many draws available, a lot of rivers are going to be tough, plus Hero is out of position. So as played I agree with check-jamming the turn. The chance to get out was preflop or maybe even on the flop.

I just rewatched the hand again and, you're right, villain does over bet the turn, but I think that there's a chance the set doesn't shove when the flush draw completes, albeit slim..

~EDiT:- considering villain is trying to price out the flush draw on the turn, good chance he'd be worried about it on the river..

~DOUBLE EDiT:- I'm not advocating or suggesting the passive play would be ideal, far from it, I'm just saying when you find yourself up **** creek without a paddle it can be prudent to stop digging and take stock... :wink:

 

[fundiver199]

~EDiT:- considering villain is trying to price out the flush draw on the turn, good chance he'd be worried about it on the river.

Or maybe not, because as you say, he priced it out. So when Hero continue, Villain should put Hero on a range consisting of only made hands. Worse sets, two pair, top pair that cant fold. This is probably the whole idea behind sizing like this on the turn. Not only does Villain get max value when called, he also gets valuable information, which makes it much easier for him to play the river.

~DOUBLE EDiT:- I'm not advocating or suggesting the passive play would be ideal, far from it, I'm just saying when you find yourself up **** creek without a paddle it can be prudent to stop digging and take stock... :wink:

This is true, and I dont know. If an obvious draw comes in on the river, and Villain still jam, maybe Hero can find a check-fold and still survive with a little over half his chips? But then again if Villain play his AK and AA the same way, there are 18 combos of those, and only 8 combos of sets. So I would also find it really difficult to get away from two pair in this spot.

 

[Joe]

Or maybe not, because as you say, he priced it out. So when Hero continue, Villain should put Hero on a range consisting of only made hands. Worse sets, two pair, top pair that cant fold. This is probably the whole idea behind sizing like this on the turn. Not only does Villain get max value when called, he also gets valuable information, which makes it much easier for him to play the river.

I didn't say he priced out the flush draw, I said he was trying to price out the flush draw, hee-hee... :laugh:

I've bet triple pot on the flop and still been called by flush draws, I've jammed flops for way more than x3 pot and been called by flush draws..

This is true, and I dont know. If an obvious draw comes in on the river, and Villain still jam, maybe Hero can find a check-fold and still survive with a little over half his chips? But then again if Villain play his AK and AA the same way, there are 18 combos of those, and only 8 combos of sets. So I would also find it really difficult to get away from two pair in this spot.

Agreed.

This is why it's prudent to be careful when defending speculatively against preflop aggressors in EP with covering stacks at the FT...

:wink:

 

[noLatenzy]

Thank you all for giving your opinion/advices!

 

[fundiver199]

This is why it's prudent to be careful when defending speculatively against preflop aggressors in EP with covering stacks at the FT...

Exactly. Also given the fact, 9 players were still left, the final table was probably formed just recently. And while I dont advocate to nit up completely in that situation, there is certainly value is just leaning back for a while and get a read on, what is going on. Who is the chip bully, who is the fish, who is playing scared. With more than 40BB and a larger than average stack we just dont need to get right in there and mix it up, unless we get a pretty premium hand or a good spot to steal the blinds.

 

[thehangdude]

I don't like calling the 2.5X preflop.
I don't like calling the 1/2 pot flop.
I really hate anything but a fold on villain's turn over bet.

It took me a long time to stop defending the blinds so wide. We all lose money from the blinds, but we need to keep it at a minimum. If you have a HUD, check your bb/100 at each position. SB and BB are likely negative. The goal is to keep these two as small in the negative as possible. Even when we have a hand, we have to play these hands out of position.

I say this to let you know, 58s is a fold when UTG+1 opens for any raise. It is hard enough to make money with KQs from the blinds.

 

[Jon Poker]

Preflop is a hair loose - although I would defend this alot on 30bb or less because in those instances we need to defend our blind a hair wider because we can mathematically go broke and its ok with certain flops (our best draws, top prs, two pairs, etc).

Anyhow, post flop is pretty standard - hard to make a pair in holdem so even for the half pot cbet I think we have to call 1 Street with our 2nd pair. The turn is one of the best cards in the deck for us so getting it all in is essential. The rest is just a cooler - nothing else can be done here.

 

[Alucard]

looks fine defending 100%