How would you play 88 here?

B

Bentheman87

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Sep 6, 2007
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794
Stacks:
* Bentheman87 with 1875
* BTN with 2355
* SB with 890
* BB with 4210
* UTG with 1720
* MP with 2450

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds:
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to Bentheman87:8♦ 8♥
* * Sklansky group 4
Preflop:
* * 1 players fold.
* * MP raises to 600
* * bentheman87 calls [600] BTN calls [600]
* * 2 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 3
* * Potsize: 2250
Flop: 2♦ 4♦ 3♣
* * MP checks
* * bentheman87 bets [1,275, and is all in]
* * 3 players fold.
* * MP calls [1,275] Hero shows : 8♦ 8♥
* * MP shows
* * Total folds this street: 1

Poker Hand Converter By Cardschat.com Poker Forum

I figured I was up against two overcards preflop and I didn't shove cuz I don't win races. So I just called with the intention of shoving on the flop in the dark or calling a shove, he might incorrectly fold two overcards if he misses the flop.

Or should I have just folded this preflop and move all in preflop in one of the next few hands? My M is just a little over 4 and I dont' like shoving ATC with an m of 4 but if I get something good like a-x or a pocket pair I could shove before the blinds reach me. Or is this a shove preflop?
 
Jillychemung

Jillychemung

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Assuming that the blinds were 200/100 I'd shove here. The pot was 50% of your stack already and your M=6 . Once the BTN calls your fold equity is gone.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Cardschat hand convertor is barely understandable. Was this late stage SnG? Were the blinds 100/200?

Assuming the answer is yes, then it depends on previous play. Has the opponent raised preflop before, and if so, what with? Is he the sort of player that would lay down 9's and 10's to an all in re-raise?

Unless you've made the decision preflop that you are going all in post flop whatever, then I dont like the call at all - 3rd of your stack to see what happens? Giving Big Stack BB odds to call?

As played, short of flopping an 8 you cant have flopped better, but i wouldn't be shocked to see a higher Pocket pair (he called with Ace high and hit one of his 10 outs I presume?).
 
KenFischer

KenFischer

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Blinds here are 150/300, based on the pot size at the flop.

The blinds are too high to be set mining. This is a pre-flop shove or fold situation, in my opinion.

As played, once you get 1/3 of your stack in the middle, I don't see how you could do anything but put the rest in. Anytime you begin a hand with less than 10xBB in your stack, you really should be in push or fold mode.
 
robwhufc

robwhufc

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Blinds here are 150/300, based on the pot size at the flop.

Oh, good spot.

I'd push preflop then, min raise is either big strength or a weak steal attempt, and i'd take a chance here.
 
V

viking999

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I figured I was up against two overcards preflop and I didn't shove cuz I don't win races.

Wrong.

Your superstitiousness caused you to make a big mistake. Get that fictional crap out of your head.
 
B

Bentheman87

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Ken is right blinds were 150/300, the first raiser's M was a little higher than mine and mine was about 4.

"As played, once you get 1/3 of your stack in the middle, I don't see how you could do anything but put the rest in."

Like I said I was going to call an all in on the flop in the dark or shove if he checks no matter what the flop. But I figured if I shoved PF then he would have to call with almost anything since he would be getting such good pot odds. Anyway I went all in on the flop, the button folded and villian called with KQ of diamonds (idk why he didn't just push first instead of check) and made a flush.
 
KenFischer

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Like I said I was going to call an all in on the flop in the dark or shove if he checks no matter what the flop. But I figured if I shoved PF then he would have to call with almost anything since he would be getting such good pot odds.

Valid point, but I still think you have a better chance to get them off the hand pre-flop. They are either trapping you (which means they aren't going to fold no matter what you do) or trying to see a flop and leave themselves enough chips to fold. It's generally good to give them an opportunity to do that if you can :)

Even though they have you covered, pushing pre-flop essentially forces them to race for their tournament life. It's a close call (and could go either way) but given a choice, the aggressive play is usually the correct one.
 
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Bentheman87

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Yea now I actually think just shoving preflop would have been better, but the reason is because this play would have probably made the button fold, and my chances of winning drop in a 3 way pot compared to a 2 way pot. If I was in the BB instead of the CO then just calling and pushing in the dark seems fine. And btw Ken, when I shove preflop there's no chance villian would fold, even if he had 9 5 offsuit and he saw my hand he would still call (unless he's an idiot) because of his pot odds.
 
KenFischer

KenFischer

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And btw Ken, when I shove preflop there's no chance villian would fold, even if he had 9 5 offsuit and he saw my hand he would still call (unless he's an idiot) because of his pot odds.

I disagree, but there's no way to know for sure :)

In this case, yes, he would probably call with K♦Q♦ but we can't assume he's holding a hand this strong.

There is more to late-game tournament strategy than pot odds, and if I'm in his spot, unless I have a premium hand, I'm going to pick a better spot than this to race. Perhaps that makes me an idiot too, but if so, I can deal with it :D
 
OzExorcist

OzExorcist

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And btw Ken, when I shove preflop there's no chance villian would fold, even if he had 9 5 offsuit and he saw my hand he would still call (unless he's an idiot) because of his pot odds.


A couple of things.

First, you're making assumptions again about your opponent's knowledge of concepts like pot odds, and the priority they put on them.

I put it to you that if you shove this pre-flop, you don't need to worry about being called by 95o. And not shoving just because you're superstitious about races is equally unhelpful thinking.

Yes, shoving pre-flop would likely have made the button fold, and with this hand you should want that to happen. Against one player your hand stands a chance. Against two (or more - remember that by calling a min-bet here you're offering the blinds a fantastic price to hang about as well) players, your chances diminish rapidly.

Lastly, your position actually counts against you if you plan to get your stack all in on the flop. What do you do if MP leads at the flop?

You can't call this one for set value, your stack just isn't deep enough. You either want to shove it all in pre-flop and try for a coin flip (or, if you're lucky, a call from a lower pair) or fold it and wait. Or maybe eveyone will fold to you pre-flop, which isn't a bad result either. But you definitely don't want multiple players taking a flop with you.
 
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wobuffet

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I agree with those who would shove preflop.
 
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