How to play this hand?

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sergey3

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Call or Fold? :confused:
(attach screenshot)
preflop: I opened 2 bet -> MP call -> KO call

flop: I donk bet -> MP2 all-in ->KO all-in
I have strong hand + strong kiker.

I'm already in the prize zone, what would you choose and why?

I will show the result of this game after discussion

Cc100df 1
 
vinnie

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There is a place for tournament hand discussion. You're going to get better answers if you post this there.
 
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sergey3

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There is a place for tournament hand discussion. You're going to get better answers if you post this there.
Thanks, i will do as you advised me
it's a pity that you can't just move the topic
 
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gichka97

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I will fold for sure in that kind of your situation for two reasons:

1) These two all-ins are showing that one of the players is having a very strong hand. In that kind of situation one of the them to have a 4 is big.

2) Many times in these kind of situations when there are more than 1 player into all-in, with two clubs on the board, someone may have flush draw and that can be very vulnerable against the AQ, despite the fact there is a good chance for full house.
 
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Oxinthewater

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I'm interested in the responses. Instinctively I'd have probably folded in your shoes , as I often do this when there 2 all-in's and I don't have a very strong hand. The 2nd all in is often an indication that you're beat.


However , looking from a distance with time to analyse, I think a good case can be made for calling.

1) 4's are unlikely for the players ranges given a pot already opened. Effective stacks don't make set mining great. A few hands like A4s could be in there , but not loads.

2) The first all-in could easily be a flush draw semi-bluff which you have beat, or just ace high. The SPR supports going in with a light hand here. Queens too and you have them out kicked. I'm not overly concerned here.

3) Second all-in is more problematic, but for sure Queen's are in his range , and more of them than 4's. Other PP too maybe, and wouldn't totally discount Ace high with FD too.

4) Obviously the price you are getting is amazing.

Would be surprised to see this be a split pot with another player holding the AQ too :)

Interested to hear the thoughts of others on this.
 
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thehangdude

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Call or Fold? :confused:
(attach screenshot)
preflop: I opened 2 bet -> MP2 call -> KO call

flop: I give min bet -> MP2 all-in ->KO all-in
I have strong hand + strong kiker.

I'm already in the prize zone, what would you choose and why?

I will show the result of this game after discussion
I would think one of them has a 4 and the other a flush draw.

You're down to 9BB, so I guess you could call with 2 sure outs (unless someone has pocket fours). It is possible they are both gunning for the draw, but I would fold.
 
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sergey3

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I will fold for sure in that kind of your situation for two reasons

I'm interested in the responses. Instinctively I'd have probably folded in your shoes

I would think one of them has a 4 and the other a flush draw.

You're down to 9BB, so I guess you could call with 2 sure outs (unless someone has pocket fours). It is possible they are both gunning for the draw, but I would fold.

Thanks for the thoughts, I thought for a long time, and chose the call, and this is what happened next ...
P.S. I hope these call are positive in these stages of the small stack tournament

Cc100df 2
 
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Oxinthewater

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Thanks for the reveal, very interesting, I hadn't put 43o into his range, it should be very far down the list and is basically in 'any 2' territory.

I don't think he has enough equity and not really much playability. I guess he's seeing the flop on the basis that he can apply ICM pressure on the 2 of you and mostly bluff pots postflop. If that is the case, then I think you're unlucky, because by playing any 2 I think he also has enough non 4 hands (inc all the nut flush draws) to make a call worthwhile.
 
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300HPGOD

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Let me start out by asking a question. You raised to 4000 or 2BB pre flop when you only had about 24k or 12BB to start the hand. Why not jam pre flop here? At 12 BB you should not be open raising without going all in too much. There are cases to be made about monsters not jamming but if you do it that way then people might pickup on that. I prefer jamming pre flop here with your stack size.

Going to flop as played you then only bet 2k into a 16800 pot where your SPR was slightly above 1. Why not just go with it right there and jam? With top pair and a SPR of 1 you cant be folding. I know there are times we are beat here but we are could be up against other Qx hands and also against a draw. I dont love that 2 people went all in however with this few chips left and top pair we have to go with it and hope it is good and holds.
 
partz

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Hey sergey, depending on how your blue noted opponent played I would definitely give a chance to that hand, because he just want to fold the other players judging his amount of chips, but I would definitely call it too if I had that low stack. It was just luck from his side.
 
erik_lima

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You had only 12bb on this hand. You should go all in pre flop with this stack. If you don't do that you give chances to others call with a wide range and that's what happen.
 
StealTheButton

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I thought A4 was more likely than 3 4, but I could be confident that at least one player had you beat. Yeah you often have the idiot slow playing KK, but you were mostl likely going to lose your stack here anyway. Your raise preflop however was too small. I would have much rather opened for 2.5 to 3bb. If you get shoved pre-flop you then have a decision to make.

I don't like open shoving here, but that is my style. Great to get it in against AJ, but I'd rather see a flop. Many will disagree with me.
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
You started with only around 10BB, as far as I can figure out, and that is to short a stack to still do a normal open raise. You are in push or fold territory, and AQ is pretty much always an easy push. So basically postflop should never have happened. Either everyone fold, which is fantastic, because then you increase your stack 25% without risk, or someone gives you action, and then come what may.

Flop
You were the preflop raiser, so you did not make a donk bet. Donk betting means betting into the previous street agressor. Instead you made a C-bet or continuation bet, which by the way was very small, but given that stacks were so short I dont completely mind your sizing. It can look weak and induce someone to spazz out, and it was very much a way ahead way behind spot on the paired board.

Anyway you made an undersized C-bet, and then all hell broke loose. I am not totally thrilled about that action, but basically you have to call. They can both have a worse Q or a flushdraw, and MP2 can also have any pocket pair, that he just want to go with, or a random bluff. You ended up losing to 43o, and this is kind of something, you did to yourself, by not jamming preflop.
 
Edgerik

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I would play push preflop with that short stack but AQ does not flop very well, suites is ok.
 
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sergey3

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Now I have already realized that it is better to shove preflop.
I'm always afraid to push the opponents with deep stack. They often get the best combination, even if they didn't have anything in the beginning.
P.S. conspiracy theory?)
 
erik_lima

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Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Now I have already realized that it is better to shove preflop.
I'm always afraid to push the opponents with deep stack. They often get the best combination, even if they didn't have anything in the beginning.
P.S. conspiracy theory?)
You don't have reasons to be afraid. You are already in the money. You are short stack, you need to double up to return to the game and AQo is a great hand for that. If the chip leader calls with 2 live cards and eliminates you, it's ok, that's poker. Just register in another tournament and try to don't get short stack again. And if you do, try to double up with all in pre flop.
 
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fundiver199

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I'm always afraid to push the opponents with deep stack. They often get the best combination, even if they didn't have anything in the beginning.
P.S. conspiracy theory?)

I just finished in 4th place in a 12$ turbo tournament on 888 Poker. The bubble play in that tournament took forever, because all the large stacks were at my table (12 places paid), and at the other table every single all-in preflop was won by the shortest stack. So yes it is just a silly conspiracy theory, that online poker sites are rigged to always make the largest stack win. They are not, and the sooner you get that nonsense out of your head, the better it will be for your progress as a poker player.
 
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fundiver199

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If the chip leader calls with 2 live cards and eliminates you, it's ok, that's poker.

To be fair though there are spots, where we might want to back off and not jam against the chip leader, because he is more likely to call us. But those spots involve being on the bubble or near an important payjump, or having a hand, which rely on folds. If for instance we are on BTN with a 10-12BB stack, this can be fine spot to open jam a suited connector like 87s. But we dont want to do that against someone in the blinds, who are going to call us with Q4o, because they are feeling the rush, and they can afford to gamble.

None of this apply to this hand though, since its not on the bubble, and with a hand as strong as AQ we actually want to get called, because we are ahead of most peoples calling range. In this case the chip leader actually had KK, but that just mean, we ran into the top of his range this one time.

Which is also just part of tournament poker. Today I got knocked out of a tournament near the bubble, because I opened QQ with a 20BB stack, and a huge whale stack to my left, who had just been moved to the table, went all in. I of course called, he had KK, and I was out. But I honestly dont lose any sleep over this, because just as often I will be the one with KK, when someone else has QQ, and I certainly dont think, a chipleader is only 3-betting KK+ and AK on the bubble.
 
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sergey3

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I will try to play without fear of big stacks, if I have a good hand.
 
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fundiver199

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I will try to play without fear of big stacks, if I have a good hand.


You should. There is also a common misconception, that because someone has a big stack, they must be a very good player. That however is absolutely not true, since anyone can get lucky in a few hands and build a big stack. This is especialy true for players with a maniacal style, and these players are literally like a chip bank waiting to get robbed. They have their moments, and they probably have a lot of fun, but they rarely make it to the final table or the final heads up.
 
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