Hello, everyone!!!
I`ve played a lot of bad hands. But one of them is bugging me for 2 months.
It was a knockout MTT 9max. Just reached prize zone ( top 500). I have about 20-25bb. That`s what happened:
I had Qd7d on SB. UTG limp, few fold, CO(110bb) raised to 4bb, BTN fold, I call, BB fold, UTG call. I thought 4 bb isn`t big price for Q high flush.
Flop: 3s Qc 7h
I check (waiting for CO move), UTG check, CO 11bb, I go all in, UTG fold, CO calls with AA.
Turn and river didn`t improve either of our hands.
So CO starts to insult me, says that I played like a fish etc.
How bad did I play that hand with given circumstances? Shuold had I folded?

I can only say what I would have done. Frankly speaking, 20-25bb is not enough for calling 4bb with suited middle cards. I wouldn't call and fold. I would try to get the best card and raise it myself would be better than calling. On the other hand, you are already in the prizes and you can relax a little.

For starters, you had double pair at flop, and villain has just AA, then you said no one improved their hands, so you are winning, or am I missing something?. (unless another 3 came at turn or river)
Regarding to the hand:
Pre-flop: probably I wouldn't have called that raise with those cards.
Flop: Since you got raised before hand and you got double pair in flop, I would have checked as well, waiting for a new raise to reraise like you did.
But still, you should've won that hand according to your description.

Originally Posted by dregan

I can only say what I would have done. Frankly speaking, 20-25bb is not enough for calling 4bb with suited middle cards. I wouldn't call and fold. I would try to get the best card and raise it myself would be better than calling. On the other hand, you are already in the prizes and you can relax a little.

Yes, I was already in prizes, didn`t count for much more, at that moment for about an hour was no good cards. so I took a risk.

Originally Posted by ivanlt18

For starters, you had double pair at flop, and villain has just AA, then you said no one improved their hands, so you are winning, or am I missing something?. (unless another 3 came at turn or river)
Regarding to the hand:
Pre-flop: probably I wouldn't have called that raise with those cards.
Flop: Since you got raised before hand and you got double pair in flop, I would have checked as well, waiting for a new raise to reraise like you did.
But still, you should've won that hand according to your description.

I won that hand. My question refers to my actions on pre-flop.

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

I won that hand. My question refers to my actions on pre-flop.

Oh right then.
You didn't play bad at all, like I said I even woulnd't have called that raise.
But of course those insults are clearly because of his loser pocket AA's

I wouldn’t have called the raise. But if I had the AA hand I would have made a much bigger raise to keep players from calling with q7 suited. He should have been talking to himself badly instead of you!!!

you were already at the prize pool, with a speculative hand. I personally would only have called with a 40-50 bbs bigger stack, but you took a risk and broke his AA.
but I would not have paid the raise with these cards, but poker is also a bit of intuition and you have doubled your stack.

You're really OOP and against his range, but 3.5 bb call isn't too bad for a speculation. If the flop doesn't come that way you're probably folding.

From his point he most likely should have raised to something around 5-6 bb preflop with the limper. I'd probably 2.2x pot with 3 left to act behind me. With AA I feel the more people you have in the hand the more likely you are to get chased down.

Given your situation I don't feel its too bad to take a stab with suited cards though. He's just tilting due to you cracking his AA. I wouldn't take too much of a rant to heart.

Regardless of the outcome of the hand it's a simple fold preflop

One of ten suggest to fold on preflop. Waste a fifth of the stack to see flop with a marginal hand.

Yes, you should fold. And yes, AA loser shouldn't insult you.

Yes i would say you played it badly
Better be the person who raises so you can take control of that play
But you played it with middle hand is not a good idea since your stack is low

I think this is definitely one of your bad hands. When you have 20-25 BB and say that 4BB is not much, it is very strange! You call and get a very large pot on the table, which is slightly smaller than your personal Bank. In this situation, you should really enter the game only with a very good hand or play preflop all in. It is not easy to throw Q on the flop, so I think the main mistake is on the preflop. Q7 is absolutely not the right hand to defend on the blinds at this stage of the tournament...

The stack is too small to call with this hand, I would fold. Another thing 80-100 big blinds was this opponent with an AA aggressor. On such calls in the distribution, you can lose a lot of chips without noticing it during the tournament. It's good that in your situation a pair did not fall on the board, which could allow him to knock you out of the tournament.

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

Hello, everyone!!!
I`ve played a lot of bad hands. But one of them is bugging me for 2 months.
It was a knockout MTT 9max. Just reached prize zone ( top 500). I have about 20-25bb. That`s what happened:
I had Qd7d on SB. UTG limp, few fold, CO(110bb) raised to 4bb, BTN fold, I call, BB fold, UTG call. I thought 4 bb isn`t big price for Q high flush.
Flop: 3s Qc 7h
I check (waiting for CO move), UTG check, CO 11bb, I go all in, UTG fold, CO calls with AA.
Turn and river didn`t improve either of our hands.
So CO starts to insult me, says that I played like a fish etc.
How bad did I play that hand with given circumstances? Shuold had I folded?

It doesn't matter what is being insulted. The main achievement of the result. All our actions should lead to a positive result. Indeed, some hands do not give rest, but what can you do this is our essence...

Originally Posted by KozakAlex

It doesn't matter what is being insulted. The main achievement of the result. All our actions should lead to a positive result. Indeed, some hands do not give rest, but what can you do this is our essence...

You`re saying, that it daesn`t matter HOW you win as long as you win? Even if it`s, say, 9 2 ofsuited, and you call 6 bet pre-flop hoping to get nuts on flop? If that`s so even I have to disagree. There must be some limits on your range. Otherwise you won`t have any achievements at all.

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

Hello, everyone!!!
I`ve played a lot of bad hands. But one of them is bugging me for 2 months.
It was a knockout MTT 9max. Just reached prize zone ( top 500). I have about 20-25bb. That`s what happened:
I had Qd7d on SB. UTG limp, few fold, CO(110bb) raised to 4bb, BTN fold, I call, BB fold, UTG call. I thought 4 bb isn`t big price for Q high flush.
Flop: 3s Qc 7h
I check (waiting for CO move), UTG check, CO 11bb, I go all in, UTG fold, CO calls with AA.
Turn and river didn`t improve either of our hands.
So CO starts to insult me, says that I played like a fish etc.
How bad did I play that hand with given circumstances? Shuold had I folded?

Good morning!
Unfortunately, I also think you played this hand badly.
That's why:
a) UTG could also limp with a monster hand in order to lure you or another player into a trap (if he covered you on the stack, since this is KO), but even in this case, provided that all other players before you have thrown their cards into fold, deliver half the blind for a flush - good value.
b) After the CO with a huge stack puts 4 big blinds - you should not call in any case (my subjective opinion) since you do not cover him on the stack, he shows that he most likely has something good, yes and your 20-25bb stack is not good for post flop play
I think that there should be a pass and only a pass!
Good luck at the tables!

im folding because we don't have much implied odds to call and sb is the worst position in poker

don't mind the insult, he lost with aces, he will insult everyone that cracked his aces he is just a sore loser, nothing personal

just take his chips to glory

100% fold preflop. What were you looking for there without position to put 20% of your stack into the pot? There were 2 players with premium hands!

You were a little loose in your hand selection but Qxs isn’t the wrost hand to play. Most of the time will be a not profit hand to play but this time it works

You called in right moment. It's poker here there isn't best preflop hand, but strong post flop show skills. In your situation I think call good if you put UTG on Ax range without Q, and CO range wide without Q. Plan: Donk flop without A/ Check push with top pair/ check fold with nothing. But CO has 110bb his open so wide that Q7s good enough for push pre in KO MTT, I'm scared only call AKo, AKs from UTG. What do you think?

Fold pre. Besides that don't let it bugg you too much if someone else is a sore loser aha. Focus on your own mistake and move on

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

Hello, everyone!!!
I`ve played a lot of bad hands. But one of them is bugging me for 2 months.
It was a knockout MTT 9max. Just reached prize zone ( top 500). I have about 20-25bb. That`s what happened:
I had Qd7d on SB. UTG limp, few fold, CO(110bb) raised to 4bb, BTN fold, I call, BB fold, UTG call. I thought 4 bb isn`t big price for Q high flush.
Flop: 3s Qc 7h
I check (waiting for CO move), UTG check, CO 11bb, I go all in, UTG fold, CO calls with AA.
Turn and river didn`t improve either of our hands.
So CO starts to insult me, says that I played like a fish etc.
How bad did I play that hand with given circumstances? Should had I folded?

First of all i would have laughed this off. but I understand you are trying to improve your understanding. All I can offer is my own perspective and as my Sharkscope shows I am no expert. However, as for my understanding presently this is how I see it:

1 - the CO should be opening wide, with an UTG limp his raise is standard nothing really out of the ordinary here imo. As far as I am concerned he priced you in and you got lucky - such is poker!

2 - Your call with a Q7s can be argued ad nauseum as to its merits, however, you should also consider the fact that defending your small blind here is in fact a good play. And once in the money players tend to loosen up a bit. So again raising to to 4 bigs while holding 110bb in the CO with a limped UTG is not necessarily screaming strength unless you have a good read on the player. and would otherwise put him on a pretty tight range. Remember, you are not playing against AA you have no idea what he has preflop you assume he is playing a range of cards and AA is only one hand in that range.

For myself I can't say what I would do, since you don't mention what kind of read you have on him, so assuming a vacuum (aka no read), I would call that some percentage of time, Maybe 30% of hands or so.

Also as you described it, its an easy hand to play post flop, if you hit air on the flop its a snap fold, if you catch a queen you are likely losing a number of chips depending on how aggressively he goes after the pot and how willing you are to call with Qx, but he could be playing the hand the same way with A7o+ as well. So maybe putting this through a card calculator may give you better insight

One final thought, if you want to have a retort for the future, and someone calls you a fish, Simply reply, "yes, well seasoned and fattened with your chips!"

flat call in sb...3bbs... with Q7 sooted...

its a bit fishy...sure...but they are your cards and your money ( buy in) and you have the right to play them as you wish. You are itm...and you have a smallish stack. Against AK you have 36%...against AJ etc 40%

if you lose the hand...you still have 20 bbs and a full orbit before the blinds hit you again.

just itm isn't a bad time to play a speculative hand like Q7 sooted...very good ev if you hit strong...and you did.

wp...nothing wrong with a bit of run good.

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

Hello, everyone!!!
I`ve played a lot of bad hands. But one of them is bugging me for 2 months.
It was a knockout MTT 9max. Just reached prize zone ( top 500). I have about 20-25bb. That`s what happened:
I had Qd7d on SB. UTG limp, few fold, CO(110bb) raised to 4bb, BTN fold, I call, BB fold, UTG call. I thought 4 bb isn`t big price for Q high flush.
Flop: 3s Qc 7h
I check (waiting for CO move), UTG check, CO 11bb, I go all in, UTG fold, CO calls with AA.
Turn and river didn`t improve either of our hands.
So CO starts to insult me, says that I played like a fish etc.
How bad did I play that hand with given circumstances? Shuold had I folded?

Thank U 4 Posting
I stopped reading when you stated I called. When we build a weak foundation it does not matter how well we build the structure.

Hope this helps

Hello, everyone!
I thank you all for your criticism. It is very helpful.
I would like to add that I normaly don`t play such hands. In early stages or with deep stack I don`t play even Q8, and rarely play Q9. But in that situation I thought I made a good decision. Apparently I was wrong.
Thank you all again. I will try to improve my game!!!

Q7s is too loose a call from the SB. Also 4BB is a large open, which means you should be calling even tighter there

yea, unless you have a dead read on him, calling Q7s SB against pfr4x CO is bleeding money in the long run, especially when you have a short stack, because you're not playing range-vs-range anymore but praying to catch cards. even assuming CO raising 30% of hands, Q7s will have only 40% equity, and that's if the UTG doesn't come along (if we give UTG a limp-calling range of 15%, the Q7s drops to a measly 26% equity three-way). and, of course, there's also the disadvantage of being the first to act on every street.

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

Hello, everyone!!!
I`ve played a lot of bad hands. But one of them is bugging me for 2 months.
It was a knockout MTT 9max. Just reached prize zone ( top 500). I have about 20-25bb. That`s what happened:
I had Qd7d on SB. UTG limp, few fold, CO(110bb) raised to 4bb, BTN fold, I call, BB fold, UTG call. I thought 4 bb isn`t big price for Q high flush.
Flop: 3s Qc 7h
I check (waiting for CO move), UTG check, CO 11bb, I go all in, UTG fold, CO calls with AA.
Turn and river didn`t improve either of our hands.
So CO starts to insult me, says that I played like a fish etc.
How bad did I play that hand with given circumstances? Shuold had I folded?

I have not seen much discussion on that fact that you just hit the prize zone, with 500 left. So, you got some money, but now is a time for you to start taking chances, if you want to begin to significantly move up the pay ladder. While I think Q7s is rather light / risky with 20-25 BB remaining, you are only up against 1 or maybe 2 other hands. I also get that you might think Big Stack could be just muscling peeps out of pot (certainly with a lot less than AA), so why not take a chance with Q7s. And once you made that call, your All IN was perfect, Held-Up, and now you are just dealing with a Sore Loser!

Just curious, how did it go from there?

Congrats CDancer, and Best Of Luck All at The Tables,

CheezeWiz

First of all CO is a fish, because he insults you and act like a "poker teacher" at the table. This is bad etiquette and also bad for business, if he is trying to win. But that being said against a 4BB open and with 20-25BB effective I dont think, I would ever call from SB with any hand. Either its good enough to move all in and get some fold equity, or you can just dump it. And Q7s is just a fold. You are not doing well against COs range, and you are also going to be out of position postflop with a hand, which offer a lot of reverse implied odds.

This time you flopped two pair, which is of course great. But what if the board is Q93, Q83 or Q63? Then you flop a top pair, which is really difficult to get away from with stacks this short, but you are still behind to his AA, KK, AQ, KQ, QJ, QT, Q9 or Q8. Or you hit on a board like K73, and now you end up paying off his AA, AK, KQ, KJ etc. So in general you want to aviod these hands, that have only one high card and nothing going for them apart from the fact, they are suited.

You made a bad decision but the poker gods gave you a break and you got lucky. What you did won't be profitable in the long run.

Your opponent insulted you because he's not all the great himself. If he was a good player he would have would have noted your lose play, taken it in stride, and would look forward to seeing you in another tournament so he can exploit you. But instead, the next time he sees you in a tournament he might relive his anger at you and make his own mistakes.

It easier insult another player than accept the lost. Nothing justifies violence. The enviroment of poker games have to be friendly and funny.

Originally Posted by CheezeWiz

I have not seen much discussion on that fact that you just hit the prize zone, with 500 left. So, you got some money, but now is a time for you to start taking chances, if you want to begin to significantly move up the pay ladder. While I think Q7s is rather light / risky with 20-25 BB remaining, you are only up against 1 or maybe 2 other hands. I also get that you might think Big Stack could be just muscling peeps out of pot (certainly with a lot less than AA), so why not take a chance with Q7s. And once you made that call, your All IN was perfect, Held-Up, and now you are just dealing with a Sore Loser!

Just curious, how did it go from there?

Congrats CDancer, and Best Of Luck All at The Tables,

CheezeWiz

I finished 153. that CO finished about 230+

It was not the best preflop call however taking into account the fact that the raise comes from the cutoff, his range of hands will be much wider than a raise from early positions, therefore it does not necessarily imply that he will have such a strong hand. like the one he ended up having.

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

I finished 153. that CO finished about 230+

Congrats, you moved-up rather nicely.

I have to say though, I think fundiver199's response is the most sound guidance for when this situation presents itself next time. And as for losing any sleep over your play, forget about it! I would not lose one wink of sleep over it. Now if I would have lost the hand, then it would probably bug me for the rest of the day... lol!

Best of Luck at The Tables, CDancer_1983, fundiver199, and All,

CheezeWiz

Personally, I'm folding Q7 in the small blind, so the call is, in the long run, a -EV play, but put that aside, the I think cutoff here played their hand FAR worse than you played your hand. You check-raised them, and a good player MIGHT have found a fold there. Infact, their bet sizing was pretty terrible too, betting 11bb, which looked like a near pot-sized bet. You managed to take advantage of someone playing an overpair far too aggressively. So, well done on your part, and the fact that they insulted you, either just mute chat, mute that player or simply ignore them. Those types of people who do that will never learn from their mistakes and will pay you off again in the future. So don't let it bother you, it's done, move on to the next hand.

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

Yes, I was already in prizes, didn`t count for much more, at that moment for about an hour was no good cards. so I took a risk.

This ^ isn't a reason to call preflop in that spot. We're also not closing out the action so our call of 4bb's while out of position and while only on a stack of 20-25bbs is bad (imo). If UTG chooses to LRRAI... ?? What's the plan if we flop Top Pair? (how many bb's are we going to be willing to spew while playing a weak hand from out of position?)

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

I won that hand. My question refers to my actions on pre-flop.

not good

you played your small blind, and you paid the raise, to see your cards.
so you hit 2 pair on the flop yup good play!
he was just pissed because you cracked his aces!
you paid to play..

Merry Christmas!

Call preflop was terrible, because you lose here 1/5-1/6 of your stack (about 20%) if not winning. With Q7 after raise preflop from CO you will win only few times and most of all time you will lose chips. I dont know how often but its about 85/15 you will lose. You give the chips playing like this. Its was bad beat for CO and big luck flop for you. It will happens not often.

I would've folded this pre. Q7s is not a great hand to play MW OOP. As played, I like the flop x/jam.

1st and foremost the insults were the bad play for him. While it was not a textbook call by you, sometimes we do take that risk. You won the hand, so it was not bad play, its impossible to play a winning hand wrong. In the long run remember your gonna lose with Q7su to AA alot more than your going to win.

Originally Posted by CDancer_1983

Hello, everyone!!!
I`ve played a lot of bad hands. But one of them is bugging me for 2 months.
It was a knockout MTT 9max. Just reached prize zone ( top 500). I have about 20-25bb. That`s what happened:
I had Qd7d on SB. UTG limp, few fold, CO(110bb) raised to 4bb, BTN fold, I call, BB fold, UTG call. I thought 4 bb isn`t big price for Q high flush.
Flop: 3s Qc 7h
I check (waiting for CO move), UTG check, CO 11bb, I go all in, UTG fold, CO calls with AA.
Turn and river didn`t improve either of our hands.
So CO starts to insult me, says that I played like a fish etc.
How bad did I play that hand with given circumstances? Shuold had I folded?

I think you played badly cause you call 4bb isoraise vs opponent with strong range and your range calling should be more tighter.Suited connectors may be broadways+ you play OOP so your equity realisation is bad.

I wouldn't even play Q7s. Especially not against a raise. Remember, strong hands are for the big pots and medium hands are for the small pots. Your hand is only a moderately strong hand. You have top pair but you have a bad kicker. Even Q10 beats you. You don't want to play a big pot with medium hands. So you don't want to get all in. Controlling the pot and keeping it small is the motto here. Of course, this works better when you are in position. In small blind, however, you play post-flop out of position. Of course, you are also taking a very big risk. Usually you have no idea where you are. That's why you put all in and someone was overpaired.

Should have folded pre flop. Calling 1/4 of your stack with Q7 isn’t a wise move. You may have won this time but you likely will not win most of the time. I would rather pick a better spot to put that much of my stack at risk. Also, calling here is not the best way either. If I am choosing to play this hand I and only shoving all in. You are either all in or folding when your stack is 20 bb. when facing a 1/4 of your stack raise. Losing this hand would have been too big a hit to your stack and not worth it.