Heads Up Pagget Three

Was this the right call?

  • Yes

    Votes: 5 55.6%
  • No

    Votes: 4 44.4%

  • Total voters
    9
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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VS our very own iwouldprefernotto in a live home game. It was a 9 player $10 buy-in tournament, and we get it to heads up play. I will create somewhat of a hand history to make it a bit easier. Villain has done this before, not once showing a hand after my fold.
1st place: $45
2nd place: $27

Blinds: 250/500
royalburrito24 (5950)
iwouldprefernotto (7550)
royalburrito24 posts the small blind of 250
iwouldprefernotto posts the big blind of 500
****HOLE CARDS****
Dealt to royalburrito24: [3s3c]
royalburrito24 raises to 1,500
iwouldprefernotto raises to 7,550 and is all in
royalburrito24 has 15 seconds left to act
royalburrito24 requests TIME
royalburrito24 calls 5,950, and is all in
Uncalled bet of 1,600 returned to iwouldprefernotto
iwouldprefernotto shows [QdJc]
royalburrito24 shows [3s3c]
****FLOP****
Js 4c 3d
****TURN****
Js 4c 3d [3h]
****RIVER****
Js 4c 3d 3h [Jh]

royalburrito24 shows [3s3c], four of a kind, threes
iwoulprefernotto shows [QdJc], full house, jacks full of threes
royalburrito24 wins the pot (11,900) with four of a kind, threes.

Keep in mind this is a live game with an exact re-creation of the hand. iwouldprefernotto completely disagrees with my call here, and asked me to post it here on Cardschat.
-Do you think it was the right call to make in this situation?

Also, I did not want to post my reasoning for the call because I do not want to influence anybody's decision on the matter.
 
Last edited:
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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-Do you think it was the right call to make in this situation?

Not sure; what type of range do you have on villain? How have you been playing? And him?

Considering only what you've given us in terms of info, I'd much rather shove pf and put him to a decision. If you raise and get 3-bet all in, it's going to be really tough to make a call with 3s since at best you're coinflipping.

Either shove or raise 2.5x to give you room to let go.

Also, I did not want to post my reasoning for the call because I do not want to influence anybody's decision on the matter.

Posting results will influence other's opinions as well.
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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Not sure; what type of range do you have on villain? How have you been playing? And him?

Considering only what you've given us in terms of info, I'd much rather shove pf and put him to a decision. If you raise and get 3-bet all in, it's going to be really tough to make a call with 3s since at best you're coinflipping.

Either shove or raise 2.5x to give you room to let go.



Posting results will influence other's opinions as well.


Since I did not shove or raise 2.5X, was it the right call?

And results were posted upon iwouldprefernotto's request.
 
dj11

dj11

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My experience suggest his pf raise was NOT a made hand raise. We all see this often. Villain raises on the assumption you have nothing at all worth even considering a call. Villain has nothing either, but the first to act has that one advantage.

In these cases I too would have thought that large PF raise was bogus, and with a big A or more I would often consider a call.

In this particular case you seem to be locally friendly with villain (so much easier to type than iwouldprefernotto), and should have some sort of read on him. Whatever reads you have on him of course will temper each separate decision, and in this case your read was right, ergo your call was right.

Keep in mind that both right and wrong have an 'r' and a 'g', as does rigged!;)

Let me add here that with anyone who thinks a call is bad theoretically, it is usually because someone had the gumption to call the bet that was equally outrageous. They seem to think that the only reasonable hand to call the big raise with is AA. Other than a baseball bat upside the head, there is little that seems to convince them that the folks they are playing actually have brains!
 
Last edited:
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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In this particular case you seem to be locally friendly with villain (so much easier to type than iwouldprefernotto), and should have some sort of read on him.

Although we have been friends for a really long time, and I should have a great read on him, I really do not because he knows me so well too. To me his range is very huge here because he knows me so well, possibly sensing weakness and repopping to gain that extra 1500. The whole night we were calling out each others hands and guessing them perfectly like it was no problem. I don't like to play opponents I know really well mainly because the chances of them knowing my style of play is very high.
 
dj11

dj11

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She calls me JJ. That could be confusing because of pocket jacks, so once again I say "damn jacks!"


Yeah well, JJ is soooooooo much easier to type!:D

You could also type up your case and get your name changed here. It has been done, by, gosh, one of your friends even!
 
soccerfreakjj10

soccerfreakjj10

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Not sure; what type of range do you have on villain? How have you been playing? And him?

Although we have been friends for a really long time, and I should have a great read on him, I really do not because he knows me so well too. To me his range is very huge here because he knows me so well, possibly sensing weakness and repopping to gain that extra 1500. The whole night we were calling out each others hands and guessing them perfectly like it was no problem. I don't like to play opponents I know really well mainly because the chances of them knowing my style of play is very high.
Summary of RB long rant: He has no clue how I play :D
 
vanquish

vanquish

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I fold this PF like 99% of the time in a vacuum but I'm bad at pokarz.
 
royalburrito24

royalburrito24

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iwouldprefernotto (2:21:06 PM): vanquish agrees with me
iwouldprefernotto (2:21:21 PM): as you know
royalburrito24 (2:21:25 PM): hes been playing World of warcraft, his vote does not count
 
vanquish

vanquish

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iwouldprefernotto (2:21:06 PM): vanquish agrees with me
iwouldprefernotto (2:21:21 PM): as you know
royalburrito24 (2:21:25 PM): hes been playing World of warcraft, his vote does not count
iwouldprefernotto (2:22:35 PM): would you stop talking about that already?

imo
 
B

BigWaveDaveO

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Even a small pair is a good hand heads up. You couldn't say a call is the wrong play here unless you know the villain only makes this kind of bet with a pair of his own.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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weaksauce

Do you remember the last hand of our heads-up match? I was shoving ATC and you called with 33 for most of your stack. It ended up being a flip because I had 76s, but the 33 held (obv). Do you really like flipping for basically your tournament life? Seriously, I think calling a shove there ('there' also means ~equal stack sizes (equal being within 2-3 BBs of each other)) with a tiny pair is basically saying 'I don't think I can outplay you, villain, so let's flip for the win.' I just don't believe in this.

The exception to this is when the blinds are very high and you're getting insane odds to flip. I say insane odds because even though you're +cEV by taking the flip here, I don't see it being more +$EV than (re)stealing later, getting 1st in with a solid hand, etc.

Then again, I'm a weak-tight noob so take that with a grain of salt.

Quick edit: Open-shoving preflop is better than 3x BB raise.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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Looking back at the other hand now it's a much different situation. You're alluding to a situation where we'd be calling for our whole tournament life, but this is much different.

We're doing the shoving; we wouldn't be shoving expecting a coinflip. We'd be expecting to push out most of the hands we'd normally be coinflipping against. The value we get from the blinds we win every time we shove this and see folds from villain outweigh the value we lose times we get called and are either the better half of the coinflip or a dog to a bigger pair. ie Fold equity plays a huge part here.
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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- I probably shove pf

- Villain's call here is somewhere between just in the wrong side of marginal and pretty bad depending on how liberally you'd been 3-betting pf previously.

- Poker is grinding with a long-term aim in mind - WoW is grinding for no real reason whatsoever, short-term or long. Congrats vanq - you've devolved. ;)
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

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- Villain's call here is somewhere between just in the wrong side of marginal and pretty bad depending on how liberally you'd been 3-betting pf previously.

fyi Hero raised 33 pf, villain 3-bet shoved QJo, hero called.

- Poker is grinding with a long-term aim in mind - WoW is grinding for no real reason whatsoever, short-term or long. Congrats vanq - you've devolved. ;)

ahahahah
 
Dorkus Malorkus

Dorkus Malorkus

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yeah i fully admit i spent like 2 seconds reading the hand and only commented to put some on-topicness in with my WoW comment. :eek:

switch hero and villain around and my point stands though, i think.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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/sigh it looks like i lost a lot of respect here just because i decided to take a break from the pain that online poker was dealing me by playing a video game. ****ing wonderful. :(
 
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