Hand Help Please

[K_Kahne_Fan]

What could/should I have done here?

pokerstars Game #15097809402: Tournament #76517616, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/02/06 - 10:35:07 (ET)
Table '76517616 1' 10-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: 09kKahneFan (1555 in chips)
Seat 2: toodangerous (1730 in chips)
Seat 3: boone119 (2165 in chips)
Seat 5: Djnumberone1 (3020 in chips)
Seat 6: Bufadu83 (1465 in chips)
Seat 7: Creep223 (1455 in chips)
Seat 9: elguano (2075 in chips)
Seat 10: aabreham (1535 in chips)
aabreham: posts small blind 15
09kKahneFan: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 09kKahneFan [ ]
toodangerous: folds
boone119: folds
Djnumberone1: raises 60 to 90
Bufadu83: calls 90
Creep223: folds
elguano: folds
aabreham: calls 75
09kKahneFan: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [ ]
aabreham: checks
09kKahneFan: bets 100
Djnumberone1: calls 100
Bufadu83: folds
aabreham: folds
*** TURN *** [ ] []
09kKahneFan: bets 100
Djnumberone1: calls 100
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
09kKahneFan: bets 100
Djnumberone1: raises 100 to 200
09kKahneFan: calls 100
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Djnumberone1: shows [ ] (two pair, Tens and Threes) He called me to the river with absolutely nothing... not even a drawing hand. Then happened to catch the 10. How the heck do I play against someone like this? I could have bet bigger, but wasn't sure how strong my 8's were.
09kKahneFan: mucks hand
Djnumberone1 collected 1160 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1160 | Rake 0
Board [7s 5c 3s 3c Th]
Seat 1: 09kKahneFan (big blind) mucked [8h 8d]
Seat 2: toodangerous folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: boone119 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Djnumberone1 showed [As Tc] and won (1160) with two pair, Tens and Threes
Seat 6: Bufadu83 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: Creep223 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: elguano (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: aabreham (small blind) folded on the Flop

 

[tenbob]

- Leave out results so you will get better replies.
- Post in the Tournament HA section, you will get more replies.

The pot is 360 once we see a flop. You should be betting at least 250. Your offering all your opponents great odds to draw out against you.

The pot is 560 once we see the turn, yet you still give him 6.5/1. Bet 450 here.

He played the hand better than you IMO.

 

[pantin007]

well u certainly needed to bet a lot of bigger
bet atleast 200 to 225 on the flop, if u get reraised u know ur beat so fold
and u needed a much larger bet on the tunr as well
i cant blame him for sticking in the hand if ur betting so small

 

[ChasersWanted]

this type of situation happens all the time, some people enter smaller buy-in tourneys and chase everything cuz it's only a couple $ to them. If i was playing your hand i would have probably raised more after the turn, (pot) if we was on a draw he may have backed down. Ya Never Know With Donkeys!!!!

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

I figured I would get a pot odds reply... but he had nothing. Why put $200 into the pot with nothing? I could see if he was on a draw or something, but he wasn't. He was on a draw of nothing. So, next time I have A10o and someone bets at me, I should call even if the flop misses me completely?

 

[Steveg1976]

What could/should I have done here?

PokerStars Game #15097809402: Tournament #76517616, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/02/06 - 10:35:07 (ET)
Table '76517616 1' 10-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: 09kKahneFan (1555 in chips)
Seat 2: toodangerous (1730 in chips)
Seat 3: boone119 (2165 in chips)
Seat 5: Djnumberone1 (3020 in chips)
Seat 6: Bufadu83 (1465 in chips)
Seat 7: Creep223 (1455 in chips)
Seat 9: elguano (2075 in chips)
Seat 10: aabreham (1535 in chips)
aabreham: posts small blind 15
09kKahneFan: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 09kKahneFan [ ]
toodangerous: folds
boone119: folds
Djnumberone1: raises 60 to 90
Bufadu83: calls 90
Creep223: folds
elguano: folds
aabreham: calls 75
09kKahneFan: calls 60
*** FLOP *** [ ] You missed the flop but most likely so did he
aabreham: checks
09kKahneFan: bets 100 If you are trying to make him fold bet 1/2-3/4 of the pot to make chasing a mistake
Djnumberone1: calls 100 - What could he have? Ksmall, A small, small pocket pair higher or lower than yours
Bufadu83: folds
aabreham: folds
*** TURN *** [ ] []
09kKahneFan: bets 100 Bet more this is now a very weak steal attempt or possibly check raise for the steal but that is a bold play and maybe wasted at this level
Djnumberone1: calls 100 - Appears to be chasing but you aren't making it a mistake really for him to do so by making such small bets
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
09kKahneFan: bets 100 He has already called your bets twice what makes you think now he will fold and now there is a card on board that can beat your pp.
Djnumberone1: raises 100 to 200 has called all the way but didn't bet enough to really make your call a mistake if you think you have the best hand.
09kKahneFan: calls 100
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Djnumberone1: shows [ ] (two pair, Tens and Threes) He called me to the river with absolutely nothing... not even a drawing hand. Then happened to catch the 10. How the heck do I play against someone like this? I could have bet bigger, but wasn't sure how strong my 8's were.
09kKahneFan: mucks hand
Djnumberone1 collected 1160 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1160 | Rake 0
Board [7s 5c 3s 3c Th]
Seat 1: 09kKahneFan (big blind) mucked [8h 8d]
Seat 2: toodangerous folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: boone119 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: Djnumberone1 showed [As Tc] and won (1160) with two pair, Tens and Threes
Seat 6: Bufadu83 folded on the Flop
Seat 7: Creep223 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: elguano (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 10: aabreham (small blind) folded on the Flop

My thoughts are in red, FWIW - Small pairs below 10's for me it is hit it or quit it. You missed the flop - playing small pairs like this is all about the implied odds. You didn't make your set so check this hand down or fold. That may be a weak play on my part but it prevents me from thowing away chips in questionable situations.

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

Guess I just need to get more aggressive. But, when I do, and bet $250 I usually get bit. Guess I'm just a little gun shy right now... need to get over it. I've just had many situations like this recently where I bet $250 - $300, then he pushes to test me; what would I do then (with above hand/flop)?

 

[tenbob]

I figured I would get a pot odds reply... but he had nothing. Why put $200 into the pot with nothing? I could see if he was on a draw or something, but he wasn't. He was on a draw of nothing. So, next time I have A10o and someone bets at me, I should call even if the flop misses me completely?

He had a back-door flush draw and two overs This is all about pot odds.

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

My final hand...

PokerStars Game #15098128616: Tournament #76517616, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2008/02/06 - 10:55:43 (ET)
Table '76517616 1' 10-max Seat #10 is the button
Seat 1: 09kKahneFan (935 in chips)
Seat 2: toodangerous (1820 in chips)
Seat 3: boone119 (1930 in chips)
Seat 5: Djnumberone1 (3200 in chips)
Seat 6: Bufadu83 (1150 in chips)
Seat 7: Creep223 (2200 in chips)
Seat 9: elguano (1720 in chips)
Seat 10: aabreham (2045 in chips)
09kKahneFan: posts small blind 100
toodangerous: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 09kKahneFan [ ]
boone119: calls 200
Djnumberone1: folds
Bufadu83: folds
Creep223: folds
elguano: raises 1520 to 1720 and is all-in
aabreham: folds
09kKahneFan: calls 835 and is all-in
toodangerous: folds
boone119: folds
*** FLOP *** [ ]
*** TURN *** [7h 6s 8d] []
*** RIVER *** [7h 6s 8d Jc] []
*** SHOW DOWN ***
09kKahneFan: shows [ ] (three of a kind, Eights)
elguano: shows [ ] (a straight, Five to Nine)
elguano collected 2270 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2270 | Rake 0
Board [7h 6s 8d Jc 9h]
Seat 1: 09kKahneFan (small blind) showed [8h 8c] and lost with three of a kind, Eights
Seat 2: toodangerous (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 3: boone119 folded before Flop
Seat 5: Djnumberone1 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: Bufadu83 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: Creep223 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: elguano showed [5d 5h] and won (2270) with a straight, Five to Nine
Seat 10: aabreham (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

 

[NuRelic]

Let's walk through it:

PokerStars Game #15097809402: Tournament #76517616, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level II (15/30) - 2008/02/06 - 10:35:07 (ET)
Table '76517616 1' 10-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: 09kKahneFan (1555 in chips)
Seat 2: toodangerous (1730 in chips)
Seat 3: boone119 (2165 in chips)
Seat 5: Djnumberone1 (3020 in chips)
Seat 6: Bufadu83 (1465 in chips)
Seat 7: Creep223 (1455 in chips)
Seat 9: elguano (2075 in chips)
Seat 10: aabreham (1535 in chips)
aabreham: posts small blind 15
09kKahneFan: posts big blind 30
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 09kKahneFan [ ]
toodangerous: folds
boone119: folds
Djnumberone1: raises 60 to 90
Bufadu83: calls 90
Creep223: folds
elguano: folds
aabreham: calls 75
09kKahneFan: calls 60

Your holding a descent sized MP and playing this OOP to the Pre-Flop aggressor. Right away you need to start thinking about how your going to gather information in order to play this out right. So when the flop comes...

*** FLOP *** [ ]

You've got a quick decision to make; do you bet at it here or risk setting up a Check/Raise in hopes that Djnumberone1 will make a continuation bet. Although I could make an argument for both options, you opt to bet out with $100. This is a poor choice. Here's why...

aabreham: checks
09kKahneFan: bets 100

You've got three players in on the hand and the Pre-Flop aggressor has yet to act. There's $360 in the pot and your $100 bet means that anyone wanting to stay with this hand will only have to pay $100 into a $460 pot; translated this means they've got a little less than 22% pot Odds.

Djnumberone1: calls 100

This isn't a dumb call on his part he's holding and as long as your not betting the come with the Flush Draw and no one else is chasing that spaded flush, he's got odds to call with 6 outs, or a little better than 24%. Then, even if you subtract the Ten of spades as an out, he's still got 5 outs or a little better than 20%. Given a tolerance of 2% he still has odds to call.

Bufadu83: folds
aabreham: folds

Right here you should consider yourself lucky you didn't get more callers! Then the Turn brings:

*** TURN *** [ ] []
09kKahneFan: bets 100

... and you only bet out with $100 into a $560 pot. That gives him 15% on his pot odds and he still has 6 outs with the remaining Aces and Tens but his hands hand odds are a little better than 12%. Right here he is outside his pot odds, but not by much. More over, because you are betting so low and not really protecting your hand, he may think he's in the lead with his Ace since you don't seem to be pushing. If I were him I could easily make this call.

Djnumberone1: calls 100
*** RIVER *** [ ] []
09kKahneFan: bets 100

An over card drops and you bet out with another $100. This really looks like a value bet and its a poor one at best. The only way this guy calls you is with a hand that can beat you. Moreover, if he smooth called with a set on the Flop (dumb with so many callers, but not unimaginable) then your dead in the water. This should have been a Check/call rather than a Bet.

Djnumberone1: raises 100 to 200
09kKahneFan: calls 100
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Djnumberone1: shows [ ] (two pair, Tens and Threes) He called me to the river with absolutely nothing... not even a drawing hand. Then happened to catch the 10. How the heck do I play against someone like this? I could have bet bigger, but wasn't sure how strong my 8's were.
09kKahneFan: mucks hand
Djnumberone1 collected 1160 from pot

I understand calling the River, but if I had been in your shoes, I'd have laid it down here. About the only thing you can beat is a bluff. If he's got a 3 - he's got you; if he's got JJ, TT, 99 or 77 - he's got you; if he's got a Ten - he's got you. The only thing you could beat would have been a smaller PP or 7x, both of which are highly unlikely given his PFR. Sorry man, but it really looks like you beat yourself on this one.

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

Thanks NR for the detail. Basically, with a flop such as above I need to be more aggressive(?).

However, since I've seen it before, let's suppose I put $300 out there after the flop and he pushes, what then? Do I push, or do I figure I'm beat (although we know I was not beat at that point)?

 

[Steveg1976]

Guess I just need to get more aggressive. But, when I do, and bet $250 I usually get bit. Guess I'm just a little gun shy right now... need to get over it. I've just had many situations like this recently where I bet $250 - $300, then he pushes to test me; what would I do then (with above hand/flop)?

If you bet say half the pot in this situation and then he comes over the top fold. Then hope a similiar situation comes along so you can play it EXACTLY the same but this time when you have it come back over the Top of his raise or smooth call and go from there. You should be playing the same hands different ways to make it hard for opponents to figure out what you have and are doing. That is why sometimes the right play is to smooth call with big hands. There is nothing wrong with laying down a hand if you think you are beat just next time use the way you have played previously to make your opponents make mistakes.

 

[pantin007]

Thanks NR for the detail. Basically, with a flop such as above I need to be more aggressive(?).

However, since I've seen it before, let's suppose I put $300 out there after the flop and he pushes, what then? Do I push, or do I figure I'm beat (although we know I was not beat at that point)?

well if he pushes, u have to assume that ur beat
and odds are that u are beat most of the time in that situation, because unless he is a maniac he will not be willing to make that big of a bluff {or if he has a really good read on u}
with ur hand, u have to respect a push

 

[NuRelic]

Thanks NR for the detail. Basically, with a flop such as above I need to be more aggressive(?).

However, since I've seen it before, let's suppose I put $300 out there after the flop and he pushes, what then? Do I push, or do I figure I'm beat (although we know I was not beat at that point)?

To answer your first question; yes - you need to be more aggressive. However, the aggression shouldn't be blind, you need to have an intent when you bet. Read my post to this thread and it should give you an idea of what I'm talking about (but it is by no means the end-all solution to the problem). After that do a little reading on Pot Odds and Hand Odds, that'll help alot.

As to your second question; your gonna hate hearing this, but it depends...

Your at Level 2 in the tournament, so it's still early on. So in your situation you need to provide us with an explanation as to why Djnumberone1 has such a commanding Chip Lead. Did he Donk it out of someone or did he hold the best hand from start to finish on one hand or was it an early on All-In race or what? That would most definitely play into it.

The problem you'd face in the situation is that you don't have the benefit of a lot of information about the strength of your opponent's hand. You still got plenty of chips and time to make your moves so there's not a real reason to risking your tournament life at this point.

Nevertheless, if you feel the guy is loose and playing Big Stack poker, and considering it's a $3.00/.40 buy in to this tourney, I think I'd be at 60/40 on me making that call with me giving the nod to pushing. Otherwise I'd fold it and never look back.

 

[Effexor]

However, since I've seen it before, let's suppose I put $300 out there after the flop and he pushes, what then? Do I push, or do I figure I'm beat (although we know I was not beat at that point)?

Which would you rather, bet out 300 on the flop and either win it there or check fold it down if you meet resistance,

or slowly bleed off 400 chips, all the while never betting enough to have any fold equity or any real information as to how strong a hand the other fellow has.

Always think ahead.

 

[merenoise]

A bigger raise on the flop and turn would have given you a much better idea of where you are in the hand. If you encounter resistance you are beat and can then check/fold. Middle pairs are always tough to play even with a flop like this.

 

[Connon]

I figured I would get a pot odds reply... but he had nothing. Why put $200 into the pot with nothing? I could see if he was on a draw or something, but he wasn't. He was on a draw of nothing. So, next time I have A10o and someone bets at me, I should call even if the flop misses me completely?

yeh he had a draw, overcards and you let him draw to them

 

[Steveg1976]

Thanks NR for the detail. Basically, with a flop such as above I need to be more aggressive(?).

However, since I've seen it before, let's suppose I put $300 out there after the flop and he pushes, what then? Do I push, or do I figure I'm beat (although we know I was not beat at that point)?

You bet 300 and he shoves all of his chips into the middle, what hand is likely to do that on this flop? AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 10's maybe and someone with two pair or trips. You fold and make a note of the move. If you see him make the same kind of over the top crazy shove a few more time next time maybe call, but you certainly don't want to call with 88's. The best advice I have read so far is this from Gordon's little Green Book "Small hand small pot, Big Hand Big Pot" You most certainly have a small hand fold and wait for a better spot.

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

Which would you rather, bet out 300 on the flop and either win it there or check fold it down if you meet resistance,

or slowly bleed off 400 chips, all the while never betting enough to have any fold equity or any real information as to how strong a hand the other fellow has.

Always think ahead.

I actually thought about this already to my self. In the future I need to realize (in a similar situation), if I have a decent hand and am willing to bet 1/3 of the (current) pot size over 3 bets, why not bet a full pot now and see the reaction. Either they will fold, call or raise.

However, hopefully they will fold or raise which usually makes it a little easier to call. BUT, if they smooth called my $300 in the above hand, what would be the best action on the (above) turn? Bet again, in which case I would have around $1100 left with a $900 pot, so would it be a shove?

 

[K_Kahne_Fan]

You bet 300 and he shoves all of his chips into the middle, what hand is likely to do that on this flop? AA, KK, QQ, JJ, 10's maybe and someone with two pair or trips. You fold and make a note of the move. If you see him make the same kind of over the top crazy shove a few more time next time maybe call, but you certainly don't want to call with 88's. The best advice I have read so far is this from Gordon's little Green Book "Small hand small pot, Big Hand Big Pot" You most certainly have a small hand fold and wait for a better spot.

I would agree, if I bet $300 (which I now realize would be a better bet) and he shoves, I'm (probably) dominated. However, see above question if he just calls my $300.

 

[Steveg1976]

I actually thought about this already to my self. In the future I need to realize (in a similar situation), if I have a decent hand and am willing to bet 1/3 of the (current) pot size over 3 bets, why not bet a full pot now and see the reaction. Either they will fold, call or raise.

However, hopefully they will fold or raise which usually makes it a little easier to call. BUT, if they smooth called my $300 in the above hand, what would be the best action on the (above) turn? Bet again, in which case I would have around $1100 left with a $900 pot, so would it be a shove?

With a call you need to be suspicious. That is when table image will be very important. Have you seen him try to trap people in similiar situations? In the hand above the turn was brick very unlikely to have helped anyone. You are going to have to decide if you want to check or raise. If you check you are inviting him to take the hand away from you but you won't have made the mistake of putting chips in with the worst hand. If you raise you maintain the intiative and if they are chasing it is now getting very expensive to do so. You are going to have to switch between the two to vary your play but try to have an idea of how you want to play the hand before you are faced with the decision.

Example - I am dealt 77 in sb, UTG calls everyone fold to me. No I consider my past actions have I been raising a lot of pots, folding or calling. in this instance I call, the BB checks. Flop come 5,8,K. now I am First to act. The UTG limped so he could have any card as could the BB. So here I check, if everyone checks and the turn comes a brick I will probably fire a bet at it and see if I can take it down. If the turn is A, 6 or 9 I am done with the hand. I try to get into hands with this/then kind of ideas so that I am not stuck pondering. It still happens when people play in wierd ways but this way you aren't stuck in a hand and wondering what to do.

 

[27cameron]

odds

on the flop you gave him something like 3.5 to 1 on a 7 to 1 shot of hitting one of his over cards. the only way he could have thought he was getting good enough pot odds is if he was looking at his effective pot odds and thinking he could get more out of you when he hit. Though i doubt you would have given up more chips if an Ace hit the board so his call on the flop is a losing one he is not getting good odds no matter what anyone says. even if he was going to stay in for 2 cards he was calling 200 from your 2 bets to win 450 in the pot after the river on a 3 to 1 shot of hitting his over cards. even if he counted his back door flush draw that is only good for about another 2 outs. though you did make the technically right play, you did bet it weak and he probably thought he could set you up for a bluff on the river. i believe a hand like this you should bet out a pot sized bet on the flop to protect your hand. then on the turn figure out where to go. know that he called your raise preflop gives you some good information though, he probably has high cards. on the turn i would have bet 2/3 the pot.this just shows you how much analysis can be done just for one hand. just what i would have thought about though.