Hand Analysis from MTT Tourney last night

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Solarx

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Hi all, I don't know where to put this thread in correct section of this website but here two plays stand out to me last night when I played in MTT tournament. Buy in was $60.

Play #1.

2k/4k Blinds. 8 players

Hero: KJo SB (88k)
Villian: BB (267K)

Player A-C Folded. Player D (two from Button) raised 12K. Player E and Button folded. Hero and Villain called.

Flop: KhJh8h --- Hero, Villain and Player D all checked. (Should I had bet???)

T: 6d --- Hero bet 4k, Villain called. Player D folded.
R: 8d --- Hero raised 14k. Villain called and showed Q8s and wins with 3 kinds of 8.

Question is should I had bet on flop instead of waiting on Turn? Villain had 3x more stacks than me that why I was hesitated to make big bet. Three hearts on flop doesn't help either. If it was dry flop, I would had shove in.

What do you think ?

Play #2.

1.5/3k Blinds. 8 players

Hero: 46o (158k) stacks SB
Villain: (157) UTG+1

Player A folded. Villain and Player C called. Player D-E and Button folded. Hero limped in. BB checked.

Flop: 4c2s4h -- BB checked. Villain bet 4k. Player C folded. Hero called. (should I had reraised?) BB called.

Turn: 2d -- All checked. I wish I was in position. I thought Villain would bet. I was afraid of the pair of 2. Villain has history of shove in with pairs.

River: 10c -- Hero bet 8k. BB raised 18k. Villain re-raised 54k. Hero called. ( was it bad pot odds offered to me or did I make incorrect here?) BB folded.

Villain showed a pair of T and win with 3 kind of T.

Player #2 caused me to tilt temporary but shook it off and placed 11 out of 75 players. No money but I still feel two plays above would propel me in the final table if I made a correct call. Or it was just pure luck?

Thank you for your time reading :D
 
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DaMooca

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Hello everyone, I don't know where to put this topic in the correct section of this site, but here two moves stood out for me last night when I played an MTT tournament. The buy-in was $ 60.


The section is correct, but here at Cardschat there is a hand converter that I think is very easy to post hands and easier to understand how the hand was played.
Because the first hand you posted I think you posted it wrong.
 
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Badday94

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Thanks for posting.

In the first hand I like the check on the flop, but what I would have done on turn is bet half pot or around 15k, and if he still called, then it's a check and fold for me if he bets on river. I would have folded because of the hearts on the flop.

In the second one if I understood well you made a full house on turn but you were afraid of pocket 2's which meant he made 4 of a kind on turn? This is the first time I hear someone be afraid of a potential 4 of a kind. Besides that, I would have made a pot size bet on the flop, then something big on turn like 2x, 3x pot size which would likely still get called by pocket 10's so I don't know if it would have gotten the job done. That's why I hate limping with such a hand or playing it whatsoever. That's the advice, don't call with 4 6 off :)
 
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Hand #1 was fine play, almost never good to donk bet, because you can get raised and then what to do
Hand #2 was bad play even from limping, avoid such trash cards. It was played fine till the river, on the river with your bet, raise and re-raise your 4 almost never good, but I'm wrong.
 
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fundiver199

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Hand 1 - KJ in SB with 22BB effective

Preflop
Facing a HJ open this is kind of a close spot, where calling, folding and jamming all have merits. You can adjust here depending on reads on both HJ and BB.

Flop
Its pretty standard to check to the preflop raiser, and even though you flopped top two, its on a monotone board, which mean, you are not that far ahead of either opponents range. Any random flushdraw was around 35% equity, and you are way behind a flopped flush.

Turn
You got, what you wanted, which was a complete brick turn card. Now I would start to bet for value and protection. Pot was 36k plus the ante so presumably close to 48k, and you had 76k left. I would bet around 30k here to give them a bad price drawing to a random flush or a random better two pair or trips. Yet you only bet 4k, which was the minimum bet and less than 10% of the pot, and this is a pretty big mistake.

River
You bet a bit larger now, but still only 14k into a pot of 56k, and this is still to small.

Results
This is what you get for not sizing your turn bet remotely correctly and letting him stay in the hand. If you size better, then bottom pair most likely fold on the turn, and thats fine.

Hand 2 64o in SB with 53BB effective

Preflop
Completing this hand is a bit iffy to be honest. I would do it, if it was suited, but when you start completing offsuit junk like this, you are putting yourself into a lot of tough spots postflop being out of position in multiway pots.

Flop
Pot was around 15k with the ante, and you had 155k behind. I feel, this is a bit to deep to play for stacks with your hand, since you have one of the worst possible kickers. So rather than going for a check-raise i prefer to simply bet out, which is fine, since its a limped pot. You can get called by draws, pocket pairs and random 2X, which you all beat. I would size around 60% pot so 8-9k. You did check however, and now someone made a very small 4k bet. This bet is so small, I think, you have to go for the check-raise. Make it 20k or something.

Turn
As played I would lead the turn now, since the flop bet was so small and weak. You say, you were afraid of 22, and this makes absolutely no sense. There is only one combo of 22 left now, so this was a great card for you, especially because they now might find it difficult to fold their random A2, K2 and so on.

River
Pot was around 27k now, and you bet 8k. This is a bit closer, but I still think, you are leaving some money on the table by betting so small. You are not getting action twice as often by betting 8k as 16k. The action behind you is a little crazy, but I dont think, you can fold this hand, as the board ran out. You only lose to 1 combo of 22 and 3 combos of TT, and its kind of surpricing, if TT just limped preflop.

Results
This one is just a big cooler, and even if you had played it different, the result would have been the same. TT is one of the hands, we want to get paid by on the flop and turn, so we are not expecting him to fold. And then of course he will sometimes hit his 2-outer. This was just a really good board runout for him, and it is, what it is.
 
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The section is correct, but here at Cardschat there is a hand converter that I think is very easy to post hands and easier to understand how the hand was played.
Because the first hand you posted I think you posted it wrong.

Yea I didn’t read FAQS. I will check out hand converter. I finished reading both Harrrington’s Vol.1 and Vol. 2 books that why I unconsciously copied Harrington’s writing style and post it in here. Lol.

Thanks for posting.

In the first hand I like the check on the flop, but what I would have done on turn is bet half pot or around 15k, and if he still called, then it's a check and fold for me if he bets on river. I would have folded because of the hearts on the flop.

In the second one if I understood well you made a full house on turn but you were afraid of pocket 2's which meant he made 4 of a kind on turn? This is the first time I hear someone be afraid of a potential 4 of a kind. Besides that, I would have made a pot size bet on the flop, then something big on turn like 2x, 3x pot size which would likely still get called by pocket 10's so I don't know if it would have gotten the job done. That's why I hate limping with such a hand or playing it whatsoever. That's the advice, don't call with 4 6 off :)

Yes - but the problem is with check and fold on turn. Villain cld bluff. I tend to think that anytime there’s nice flush draw on the flop, player will bluff by bet on the flop. If he continues to bet on turn then I fold right away.

As for pair of 2, I was uncertain if he has 2 to make quads but again 10 on the river is pure luck.

Hand #1 was fine play, almost never good to donk bet, because you can get raised and then what to do
Hand #2 was bad play even from limping, avoid such trash cards. It was played fine till the river, on the river with your bet, raise and re-raise your 4 almost never good, but I'm wrong.


I was on SB so not sure it’s limping if I’m calling BB’s blind?
 
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Solarx

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Hey Fundiver199.

I didn’t want to quote entire your post but wow thanks for detailed analysis. Appreciate it man! :D

So two takeaway from my leaks are:

1. Not making correct bet size. That is one of my big problems is to make pot sized bet because I continue to have the fear of losing the huge chucks of my stacks. You recommended 30k bet while I made a bet of 4K. Wow. I need to stop being afraid.

2. Limping in. I normally don’t limp in and I followed pre-flop chart. Sometime I limp in to throw my opponent off because I dont want them to notice my bet pattern. Mixed bet pattern is what I aim to do in my game.

I remember one player said he noticed that every time I re-raise. He put the range of TT+ on me and AK-AT off suit. So that why I limp in to throw them off but agree with you , 46o is terrible. As I still have bad habit of calling on SB position.

I want to ask about preflop strategy for SB but that is for other thread discussion.
 
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fundiver199

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Just to avoid misunderstandings there is nothing wrong with completing from SB, when people have limped into the pot, and you have a hand, thats good enough to pay the extra 0,5BB to see a flop, but not good enough to raise it up. You just dont want to take it to far, and 64o is probably a bit to far in my opinion. Your other point about not being scared is spot on. When you get rid of the fear of losing, poker becomes much more fun and also more profitable. Happy if I was able to give you a small push in the right direction :)
 
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trent32la

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Hi all, I don't know where to put this thread in correct section of this website but here two plays stand out to me last night when I played in MTT tournament. Buy in was $60.

Play #1.

2k/4k Blinds. 8 players

Hero: KJo SB (88k)
Villian: BB (267K)

Player A-C Folded. Player D (two from Button) raised 12K. Player E and Button folded. Hero and Villain called.

Flop: KhJh8h --- Hero, Villain and Player D all checked. (Should I had bet???)

T: 6d --- Hero bet 4k, Villain called. Player D folded.
R: 8d --- Hero raised 14k. Villain called and showed Q8s and wins with 3 kinds of 8.

Question is should I had bet on flop instead of waiting on Turn? Villain had 3x more stacks than me that why I was hesitated to make big bet. Three hearts on flop doesn't help either. If it was dry flop, I would had shove in.

What do you think ?

Play #2.

1.5/3k Blinds. 8 players

Hero: 46o (158k) stacks SB
Villain: (157) UTG+1

Player A folded. Villain and Player C called. Player D-E and Button folded. Hero limped in. BB checked.

Flop: 4c2s4h -- BB checked. Villain bet 4k. Player C folded. Hero called. (should I had reraised?) BB called.

Turn: 2d -- All checked. I wish I was in position. I thought Villain would bet. I was afraid of the pair of 2. Villain has history of shove in with pairs.

River: 10c -- Hero bet 8k. BB raised 18k. Villain re-raised 54k. Hero called. ( was it bad pot odds offered to me or did I make incorrect here?) BB folded.

Villain showed a pair of T and win with 3 kind of T.

Player #2 caused me to tilt temporary but shook it off and placed 11 out of 75 players. No money but I still feel two plays above would propel me in the final table if I made a correct call. Or it was just pure luck?

Thank you for your time reading :D
Player D (buttons) stack is very relevant with regards to your preflop decision, in the future please include all stack sizes of players going to the flop if you can, however I understand in live games it is not as easy. Additionally, please update the pot size on each street in your post so it is easier to follow along.

Preflop I prefer a push/fold strategy here that leans towards folding. With 22bb, you have fold equity against a 3x and good blockers where you can fold out the weaker parts of what will be a likely wide button opening range and also fold out hands that beat you such as smaller pairs and weak Ax. If you believe your opponent is very strong opening here I prefer letting go of KJo and finding better spots. In general, I prefer a push/fold strategy in this spot with your entire range, especially against a 3x button open.

Flop check is fine, I would not have a leading range on this flop.

On the turn, min betting here with anything is terrible. You will have hands like AhXx, and your KJ w/ no flush draws needs protection from flush draws that checked back.

Assuming the pot is 36k on the turn and you have 76k behind, I prefer going 18k (1/2 pot) here for protection as well as giving yourself a good price on a semibluff when you have Qh/Ah in your hand here that allows you to shove rivers that benefit your range/hand. Minbetting in these spots is a bad habit in general and you should be thinking more in depth into sizings and your hand vs opponents ranges.

River sizing is okay, but I would be curious to hear your justification for the river sizing as I can definitely comment and improve your thought process in these types of spots.

Lastly, please do not post the results of hands in this section as it can lead to misleading/biased advice. When analyzing hands, you will get stronger feedback without posting results or considering them in the analysis.

Will try and comment on 64o later.
 
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eetenor

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Hi all, I don't know where to put this thread in correct section of this website but here two plays stand out to me last night when I played in MTT tournament. Buy in was $60.

Play #1.

2k/4k Blinds. 8 players

Hero: KJo SB (88k)
Villian: BB (267K)

Player A-C Folded. Player D (two from Button) raised 12K. Player E and Button folded. Hero and Villain called.

Flop: KhJh8h --- Hero, Villain and Player D all checked. (Should I had bet???)

T: 6d --- Hero bet 4k, Villain called. Player D folded.
R: 8d --- Hero raised 14k. Villain called and showed Q8s and wins with 3 kinds of 8.

Question is should I had bet on flop instead of waiting on Turn? Villain had 3x more stacks than me that why I was hesitated to make big bet. Three hearts on flop doesn't help either. If it was dry flop, I would had shove in.

What do you think ?

Play #2.

1.5/3k Blinds. 8 players

Hero: 46o (158k) stacks SB
Villain: (157) UTG+1

Player A folded. Villain and Player C called. Player D-E and Button folded. Hero limped in. BB checked.

Flop: 4c2s4h -- BB checked. Villain bet 4k. Player C folded. Hero called. (should I had reraised?) BB called.

Turn: 2d -- All checked. I wish I was in position. I thought Villain would bet. I was afraid of the pair of 2. Villain has history of shove in with pairs.

River: 10c -- Hero bet 8k. BB raised 18k. Villain re-raised 54k. Hero called. ( was it bad pot odds offered to me or did I make incorrect here?) BB folded.

Villain showed a pair of T and win with 3 kind of T.

Player #2 caused me to tilt temporary but shook it off and placed 11 out of 75 players. No money but I still feel two plays above would propel me in the final table if I made a correct call. Or it was just pure luck?

Thank you for your time reading :D


Thank you for posting.

Hand 2

We gamble with a very weak holding in the SB-when we do this we have to have a plan before we see the flop. That way we will not make mistakes like letting other players hit 2 outers for the minimum which we then pay off with our stack.

What would a basic plan look like- 64off is not a good multiway hand even when it flops draws as our V can have flush redraws backdoors etc.
When a hand is not good multiway and we know it we need to narrow the field at some point before the river.

We should not be expecting to stack players with 64o very often so when it hits any value we get from the hand is good so we do not need to slow play it. Also as you discovered here even making a full house with it was still vulnerable because the cards are so low. So it is best if we do not play it as a trap all the way to the river.

On the river we have to assume we are splitting the pot with another 4 losing to TT 22 and the action suggests that is the entire range of the 2 villains. It sucks but we can fold here-the key is the BB suddenly coming to life after being so passive and the other player who bet flop but checked turn shoving over the no longer passive BB who's raise screams a 2 at least if not better yet the V shoves over that. 0 bluffs 0 over pairs do that expecting full house to fold.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
Bnobob

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The 8s on the table would be interesting! lose with k, j, on the flop was not disappointing
 
Bnobob

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Just to avoid misunderstandings there is nothing wrong with completing from SB, when people have limped into the pot, and you have a hand, thats good enough to pay the extra 0,5BB to see a flop, but not good enough to raise it up. You just dont want to take it to far, and 64o is probably a bit to far in my opinion. Your other point about not being scared is spot on. When you get rid of the fear of losing, poker becomes much more fun and also more profitable. Happy if I was able to give you a small push in the right direction :)
completing the Baby and interesting, worse and when the game ends up turning. the lose game
 
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Player D (buttons) stack is very relevant with regards to your preflop decision, in the future please include all stack sizes of players going to the flop if you can, however I understand in live games it is not as easy. Additionally, please update the pot size on each street in your post so it is easier to follow along.

Yes, thanks for reminding me to include stacks. I forgot they are important when it comes to discuss each street.

Preflop I prefer a push/fold strategy here that leans towards folding. With 22bb, you have fold equity against a 3x.

I am not sure what 22bb means. I assume it means 22,000 stacks? Also push/fold strategy, I thought it s pot sized you would want to bet instead of all in/fold preflop unless you are in final table or nearing bubble.

Assuming the pot is 36k on the turn and you have 76k behind, I prefer going 18k (1/2 pot) here for protection as well as giving yourself a good price on a semibluff when you have Qh/Ah in your hand here that allows you to shove rivers that benefit your range/hand. Minbetting in these spots is a bad habit in general and you should be thinking more in depth into sizings and your hand vs opponents ranges.

I agree one of my biggest leaks or weakness is bet pot sized instead of 1/4. I ll have to work on this part. Thanks for pointing it out. Also it makes senses to bet 1/2 pot so that if opponent calls you then you know it's time to fold on river OR opponent will fold if he's tight player.

River sizing is okay, but I would be curious to hear your justification for the river sizing as I can definitely comment and improve your thought process in these types of spots.

Obviously I thought I win but now I look back at this particular hand and see why my opponent wouldn't fold until river because of my mistake/or showing fear.
Lastly, please do not post the results of hands in this section as it can lead to misleading/biased advice. When analyzing hands, you will get stronger feedback without posting results or considering them in the analysis.

I didn't realize about posting the result but thanks!
 
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Solarx

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Thank you for posting.

Hand 2

We gamble with a very weak holding in the SB-when we do this we have to have a plan before we see the flop. That way we will not make mistakes like letting other players hit 2 outers for the minimum which we then pay off with our stack.

What would a basic plan look like- 64off is not a good multiway hand even when it flops draws as our V can have flush redraws backdoors etc.
When a hand is not good multiway and we know it we need to narrow the field at some point before the river.

We should not be expecting to stack players with 64o very often so when it hits any value we get from the hand is good so we do not need to slow play it. Also as you discovered here even making a full house with it was still vulnerable because the cards are so low. So it is best if we do not play it as a trap all the way to the river.

On the river we have to assume we are splitting the pot with another 4 losing to TT 22 and the action suggests that is the entire range of the 2 villains. It sucks but we can fold here-the key is the BB suddenly coming to life after being so passive and the other player who bet flop but checked turn shoving over the no longer passive BB who's raise screams a 2 at least if not better yet the V shoves over that. 0 bluffs 0 over pairs do that expecting full house to fold.

Hope this helps
:):)

Yes. I should be like 'Thanks poker god for SB special' and all in to avoid showdown.
 
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fundiver199

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On the river we have to assume we are splitting the pot with another 4 losing to TT 22 and the action suggests that is the entire range of the 2 villains. It sucks but we can fold here-the key is the BB suddenly coming to life after being so passive and the other player who bet flop but checked turn shoving over the no longer passive BB who's raise screams a 2 at least if not better yet the V shoves over that. 0 bluffs 0 over pairs do that expecting full house to fold.

The first thing to note is, that because the hand was played in such a passive way until the river, even though the Villain is 3-betting, its only to 18BB and for around 1/3 of the effective stack. So actually Hero even has to option to raise as a 4-bet jam. Starting with that, I think, it would be an overplay to 4-bet jam. It would likely only get action from 4X and better, and I also dont think, 4X would ever fold.

Folding on the other hand would be insanely nitty. Its entirely possible, that BB is raising 2X for value, since the action has been so weak, or he could just be trying to make a move and take the pot away cheaply. This mean, that BB dont always have a 4, which makes it very possible, that Villain can have a 4 and be raising it for value. Yes we are then calling for a chopper, but if we beat all bluffs, and we chop against 80% of the value, thats still an insanely profitable call.

The much more interesting situation would be, if Hero call, and now BB comes over the top for a 4-bet jam, and Villain jam as well. In that situation we would probably have to put both of them on 4X or better, and since only one more 4 is available, then one of them would almost need to have 22 or TT. So in this situation I think, we would need to fold. But facing just the 3-bet for a third of our stack, we have a very clear call in my opinion.

Actually Hero lost the absolute minimum in this hand, because he played it so passive on the flop and turn. If Hero had started to build the pot up earlier, he would 100% have gotten stacked on this river rather than losing only 1/3 of his stack. So it was kind of a lucky mistake, that Hero did not put in more chips earlier.
 
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Actually Hero lost the absolute minimum in this hand, because he played it so passive on the flop and turn. If Hero had started to build the pot up earlier, he would 100% have gotten stacked on this river rather than losing only 1/3 of his stack. So it was kind of a lucky mistake, that Hero did not put in more chips earlier.


How do you teach players to overcome the fear to bet pot sized or more than 1/2 pot? For tight aggressive player like me, I don't like to risk unless I absolutely know that I have nut draws then I will bet pot sized.
 
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fundiver199

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How do you teach players to overcome the fear to bet pot sized or more than 1/2 pot? For tight aggressive player like me, I don't like to risk unless I absolutely know that I have nut draws then I will bet pot sized.


Practice online, where you can play for insignificant money and simply buy into another tournament right away, if you bust. And then bring this mentality with you to the live tables.
 
FernA9ndo

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Play #1.
Check on the flop because of three cards of hearts. On the river I would just check too.


Play #2.
Check on the flop and call. On the turn when you made full house I would bet and on the river villain had full house, I would bet with full house too and call the raise.
 
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The first thing to note is, that because the hand was played in such a passive way until the river, even though the Villain is 3-betting, its only to 18BB and for around 1/3 of the effective stack. So actually Hero even has to option to raise as a 4-bet jam. Starting with that, I think, it would be an overplay to 4-bet jam. It would likely only get action from 4X and better, and I also dont think, 4X would ever fold.

Folding on the other hand would be insanely nitty. Its entirely possible, that BB is raising 2X for value, since the action has been so weak, or he could just be trying to make a move and take the pot away cheaply. This mean, that BB dont always have a 4, which makes it very possible, that Villain can have a 4 and be raising it for value. Yes we are then calling for a chopper, but if we beat all bluffs, and we chop against 80% of the value, thats still an insanely profitable call.

The much more interesting situation would be, if Hero call, and now BB comes over the top for a 4-bet jam, and Villain jam as well. In that situation we would probably have to put both of them on 4X or better, and since only one more 4 is available, then one of them would almost need to have 22 or TT. So in this situation I think, we would need to fold. But facing just the 3-bet for a third of our stack, we have a very clear call in my opinion.

Actually Hero lost the absolute minimum in this hand, because he played it so passive on the flop and turn. If Hero had started to build the pot up earlier, he would 100% have gotten stacked on this river rather than losing only 1/3 of his stack. So it was kind of a lucky mistake, that Hero did not put in more chips earlier.


Great analysis as usual

I apparently was not looking at the stack size correctly.

When we reverse engineer this hand- which we should always do with spots like this- so that we can get a strong idea of how our V player pool are actually playing their hands not how they could be playing their hands this is a pattern hand.

Pattern hands give us insight into how our Villain player pool is thinking about specific situations.

So would the V who 3 bet river think he could bluff or raise a 2 profitably? Based on prior patterns of play at this stake by the player pool? It is unlikely.

Often at this stake the blinds call with hands that hit this flop and players in the blinds trap with the 4 and do not lead the turn with a 2 and bluffs as leads are almost non existent-so few players in the 3 bet spot expect a 2 to fold especially for this sizing we then have our hero lead and BB raises.

So Zeebo's theorem applies here 99% of the time. Which means we can eliminate any bluffs from the 3 bet spot as well as no 3 bet of a 2 for value.
Which means we are tying a 4 or losing 99% of the time. Which means we could fold.
No that we should fold but we can find folds here even for this sizing.

If we fold we then look for information in later hands that either confirms or refutes our template for our villain player pool tendencies or individual player tendencies where the 3 bet player does have bluffs in similar spots or other V in our pool do.

We can reverse engineer a standard player pool thought process here based on all the actions post flop of the IPP V

So IPP V bets a 442 flop. Standard V check trap all 4's and 22 as to let others catch something but this V bet so we can assume they have 2x normally A2 or over pairs as we saw here or bluffs but a very low % of 4's as we are blocking the 4.

They get called in 2 spots and the turn is a 2 they then check back why?

Standard play by a 2 is check for fear of the 4 or trap with the full house. They are also checking all over pairs for fear of the 4 and the 2 and rightly so and they give up on their bluffs 90+% of the time versus 2 calls from the blinds which is a correct play at this stake level.

River T Hero leads a 4 (card removal) gets raised by the BB who can have all the 4's and 2's and now IPPV 3 bets which is at these stakes is a nut or near nut hand by a standard player.

Would a standard V think they had the nuts with 2x after that action and want to re-open the betting for a possible 4x holding or would they just call and hope hero id not re-raise?

So a standard V bluffs 5% of the time raises a 2 5% of the time and has a 4 10% of the time-based on flop bet not check back and card removal- but suddenly 3 bets for value.

MY first thought is shit this V has TT. It is the hand that makes the most sense based on a standard V player pool profile which I had already built prior to being in this hand.

So would this be a nitty fold?

Think through the above analysis I presented and consider the information the IPPV is giving us in this hand.

Of course if you are multi-tabling you my not have time to think this deeply about the situation as it occurs which leads us to have to call this bet more frequently.

Hope this helps
:):)
 
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