Guess I need to learn pot odds a little better

K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

Legend
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Total posts
1,197
Not only did he call with just a draw, he raised...

pokerstars Game #15098432124: Tournament #76520158, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2008/02/06 - 11:15:04 (ET)
Table '76520158 1' 10-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: djc31 (1410 in chips)
Seat 2: silnik30 (2000 in chips)
Seat 3: K1ndofblu (1005 in chips)
Seat 4: GGBENZ (1385 in chips)
Seat 5: rich138 (1400 in chips)
Seat 6: AndyDandy21 (1200 in chips)
Seat 7: man_holeUK (2175 in chips)
Seat 8: 09kKahneFan (3230 in chips)
Seat 9: $tifmeister (1195 in chips)
man_holeUK: posts small blind 25
09kKahneFan: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 09kKahneFan [:qh4: :qd4:]
$tifmeister: folds
djc31: folds
silnik30: raises 50 to 100
K1ndofblu: folds
GGBENZ: folds
rich138: calls 100
AndyDandy21: folds
man_holeUK: folds
09kKahneFan: raises 200 to 300
silnik30: calls 200
rich138: folds
*** FLOP *** [:7h4: :jd4: :kd4:]
09kKahneFan: bets 200
silnik30: raises 200 to 400
09kKahneFan: calls 200
*** TURN *** [7h Jd Kd] [:8c4:]
09kKahneFan: checks
silnik30: bets 250
09kKahneFan: calls 250
*** RIVER *** [7h Jd Kd 8c] [:10c4:]
09kKahneFan: checks
silnik30: bets 300
09kKahneFan: calls 300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
silnik30: shows [:ah4: :qc4:] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
09kKahneFan: mucks hand
silnik30 collected 2625 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2625 | Rake 0
Board [7h Jd Kd 8c Tc]
Seat 1: djc31 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: silnik30 showed [Ah Qc] and won (2625) with a straight, Ten to Ace
Seat 3: K1ndofblu folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 4: GGBENZ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: rich138 folded before Flop
Seat 6: AndyDandy21 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: man_holeUK (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 8: 09kKahneFan (big blind) mucked [Qh Qd]
Seat 9: $tifmeister folded before Flop (didn't bet)



And the next hand...



PokerStars Game #15098493144: Tournament #76520158, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (50/100) - 2008/02/06 - 11:18:54 (ET)
Table '76520158 1' 10-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: djc31 (1260 in chips)
Seat 2: silnik30 (2975 in chips)
Seat 3: K1ndofblu (1155 in chips)
Seat 4: GGBENZ (1385 in chips)
Seat 5: rich138 (1850 in chips)
Seat 6: AndyDandy21 (1200 in chips)
Seat 7: man_holeUK (2150 in chips)
Seat 8: 09kKahneFan (1930 in chips)
Seat 9: $tifmeister (1095 in chips)
K1ndofblu: posts small blind 50
GGBENZ: posts big blind 100
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 09kKahneFan [:kc4: :kh4:]
rich138: folds
AndyDandy21: raises 100 to 200
man_holeUK: folds
09kKahneFan: raises 400 to 600
$tifmeister: folds
djc31: folds
silnik30: folds
K1ndofblu: folds
GGBENZ: folds
AndyDandy21: calls 400
*** FLOP *** [:6s4: :ad4: :ac4:]
AndyDandy21: checks
09kKahneFan: bets 600
AndyDandy21: calls 600 and is all-in
*** TURN *** [6s Ad Ac] [:5c4:]
*** RIVER *** [6s Ad Ac 5c] [:js4:]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
AndyDandy21: shows [:6h4: :6c4:] (a full house, Sixes full of Aces)
09kKahneFan: shows [:kc4: :kh4:] (two pair, Aces and Kings)
AndyDandy21 collected 2550 from pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 2550 | Rake 0
Board [6s Ad Ac 5c Js]
Seat 1: djc31 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 2: silnik30 (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 3: K1ndofblu (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: GGBENZ (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 5: rich138 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: AndyDandy21 showed [6h 6c] and won (2550) with a full house, Sixes full of Aces
Seat 7: man_holeUK folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: 09kKahneFan showed [Kc Kh] and lost with two pair, Aces and Kings
Seat 9: $tifmeister folded before Flop (didn't bet)
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
*** FLOP *** [:7h4: :jd4: :kd4:]
09kKahneFan: bets 200 There you go again, betting 200 into 725. Are you trying to look weak on purpose?
silnik30: raises 200 to 400 The raise here is for fold equity, not for giving himself the right odds.
09kKahneFan: calls 200
The first thing I notice is that all of your C-bets are *very* weak. That's why you got raised, because you were showing weakness. I would have laid the hand down at this point in the hand, because any king has you crushed, and there are a lot of strong draws out there that will make things difficult for you on later streets.

I'm not sure what you called the turn & river for. Your opponent is showing more strength than your hand has, and on the river there's not much you beat.
 
merenoise

merenoise

Guest
Joined
Jan 27, 2008
Total posts
19
I agree, either reraise on the flop or fold. Calling is not an option.
 
K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

Legend
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Total posts
1,197
09kKahneFan: bets 200 There you go again, betting 200 into 725. Are you trying to look weak on purpose?

No, and I now know, with help from my other thread, since I had $3K, I could have afforded a pot sized bet here and seen the reaction. However, would you assume you were beat here, or try the bet?
 
NuRelic

NuRelic

Rock Star
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Total posts
146
Let's do another walk through:
PokerStars Game #15098432124: Tournament #76520158, $3.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level III (25/50) - 2008/02/06 - 11:15:04 (ET)
Table '76520158 1' 10-max Seat #6 is the button
Seat 1: djc31 (1410 in chips)
Seat 2: silnik30 (2000 in chips)
Seat 3: K1ndofblu (1005 in chips)
Seat 4: GGBENZ (1385 in chips)
Seat 5: rich138 (1400 in chips)
Seat 6: AndyDandy21 (1200 in chips)
Seat 7: man_holeUK (2175 in chips)
Seat 8: 09kKahneFan (3230 in chips)
Seat 9: $tifmeister (1195 in chips)
man_holeUK: posts small blind 25
09kKahneFan: posts big blind 50
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to 09kKahneFan [:qh4: :qd4:]
$tifmeister: folds
djc31: folds
silnik30: raises 50 to 100
K1ndofblu: folds
GGBENZ: folds
rich138: calls 100
AndyDandy21: folds
man_holeUK: folds
09kKahneFan: raises 200 to 300
There's $250 in the pot when you make this $200 Re-Raise. You've got two problems right off the bat that you need to identified
(1) You will again be OOP throughout the course of this hand if either player opts to call.
(2) You've got a strong hand heading to the flop and you've got a Chip Lead over both player (but more importantly - the Pre-Flop Aggressor), yet your $200 bet does little to thin the Heard.

silnik30: calls 200
rich138: folds
Silnik30 has no reason to fold since he's already invested $100 into this hand and it's only going to cost him another $200 to stick with it. AQo is a solid hand and I can't say his calling here is necessarily a poor decision because, although he's a Dog to you Queens, he doesn't know that and with position and a solid hand it's a worthwhile call. Additionally, you should know that you got lucky you only got one caller instead of two. Rich138 is getting better than 3.5-to-1 odds to make the call. I'd have a pretty wide range of hand I could make that call with give those odds and considering he's already partially invested.

Personally, I'd have played some Big Stack poker and popped off a bet between $400-$500 and would have even been prepared to push all the way with this hand if Re-Raised.
Here's why, I get the since that silnik30 is a bit of a loose cannon from the way the hand plays out and because of the way rich138 made the call against silnik30 with players still left to act, but folds when he'd be last to act after the Re-Raise while getting good odds. If silnik30 is indeed loose I'd have put him All-In before the flop and force him to make a decision for his tournament life knowing I had him covered.

*** FLOP *** [:7h4: :jd4: :kd4:]
09kKahneFan: bets 200
YES, its a scary Flop, but there's $725 in the pot and you bet out with $200. This is where you've got to tread somewhat lightly but still have a plan. Your going to need to bet out with at least 1/2 to 2/3 of the Pot with your continuation Bet if you want to represent that your holding the King and re-evaluate if your Called/Raised. The other option is to bet small and see what silnik30 does. You choose the latter and signal weakness with this smallish bet and almost as if too proove the point...

silnik30: raises 200 to 400
He pops you right back to see what you do in order to get some information of his own. How does he know he's right to do this? Because there's a Flush Draw Threat on the board and your $200 does not provide enough protect if, in fact, you had been holding a King. This Re-Raise is designed to force you to give up information about your hand and possibly buy a free card on the turn. Because your OOP and bet so low, you've only got two realistic options at this point.

Fold or Raise.

If your going to run with it you would need to raise it to roughly $500-$600 and this really isn't as hard as you might think. Because, when he makes the minimum Re-Raise against you, its also a tell for you to exploit because (just like you), if he held a King he'd need to protect it from the same Flush Draw. With that in mind there's a high probability that he doesn't hold a King either. Calling is not an option here because your just confirming what he wants to hear, however...

09kKahneFan: calls 200
You do call and signal weakness thereby confirming that you don't have a King. Silnik30 probably knows that he's ahead in the hand but, since he has position on you and the knowledge that you don't hold a King, this is something that can he can exploit.
*** TURN *** [:7h4: :jd4: :kd4:] [:8c4:]
09kKahneFan: checks
You might as well just tell him in the chat bar, "Yo silnik30, I don't have a King."

silnik30: bets 250
09kKahneFan: calls 250
Although you did give him the free card that he wanted and paid for, he bets here anyway because there's a very good chance that he can now buy it away from you and I'd be willing to say that if he had actually bet $400 or more - you'd have folded. Now you've got to remember, you get to this point because you played your Queens poorly Pre-Flop then exacerbated the situation by signaling all kinds of weakness on the Flop. All of that then leads to this...

*** RIVER *** [:7h4: :jd4: :kd4::8c4:] [:10c4:]
09kKahneFan: checks
You are forced to check because you prolly have no idea where you are in the hand.

silnik30: bets 300
This is a value bet, pure and simple, and...

09kKahneFan: calls 300
*** SHOW DOWN ***
silnik30: shows [:ah4: :qc4:] (a straight, Ten to Ace)
09kKahneFan: mucks hand
silnik30 collected 2625 from pot
...just like the other hand we broke down earlier, you have no business calling this final bet. There isn't much you can beat, except Jacks and there's a low probability of that with consideration given to the size of that final bet in comparison to the bets that came earlier in the hand, it should signal that your probably behind should just fold it away.
 
K_Kahne_Fan

K_Kahne_Fan

Legend
Joined
Oct 2, 2007
Total posts
1,197
Let's do another walk through:

You might as well just tell him in the chat bar, "Yo silnik30, I don't have a King."

Thank you for the detailed break down. Also, thanks for the above laugh, shows me how that call is really taken :D
 
B

Bentheman87

Guest
Joined
Sep 6, 2007
Total posts
794
The first hand with QQ I think you played it fine, just should have bet a little more on the flop. The other hand with KK, it makes more sense to check here instead of bet, because you're not afraid of giving a free card, and if he does have an ace you save yourself money by checking. Just a general tip but its more useful if you're deepstacked, because if he goes all in here you'd probably call.
 
NuRelic

NuRelic

Rock Star
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Total posts
146
The first hand with QQ I think you played it fine, just should have bet a little more on the flop. The other hand with KK, it makes more sense to check here instead of bet, because you're not afraid of giving a free card, and if he does have an ace you save yourself money by checking. Just a general tip but its more useful if you're deepstacked, because if he goes all in here you'd probably call.


WOW! :shot:
 
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