Go big or go home.

[Lo-Dog]

Ok what I want to know is, should I have re-raised PF, which I guess would be all in and of course the call on the flop.

pokerstars Game #7763143403: Tournament #39684641, $4.00+$0.40 Hold'em No Limit - Level VI (100/200) - 2007/01/04 - 15:25:11 (ET)
Table '39684641 12' 9-max Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: PLF_DBA_MAN (2430 in chips)
Seat 3: j00kerman (2004 in chips)
Seat 4: WillieBe@min (9215 in chips)
Seat 5: ! PJ KIRK ! (2283 in chips)
Seat 6: fido991 (6436 in chips)
Seat 7: SocaBeat (4040 in chips)
Seat 8: improvartist (5620 in chips)
Seat 9: usamausama (13787 in chips)
PLF_DBA_MAN: posts small blind 100
j00kerman: posts big blind 200
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to PLF_DBA_MAN [As Ks]
WillieBe@min: folds
! PJ KIRK !: folds
fido991: folds
SocaBeat: raises 600 to 800
improvartist: folds
usamausama: folds
PLF_DBA_MAN: calls 700
j00kerman: folds
*** FLOP *** [2h 6d 5c]
PLF_DBA_MAN: checks
SocaBeat: bets 3240 and is all-in
PLF_DBA_MAN: calls 1630 and is all-in

OK I use my time out and this is what I thought.

I figure he has a pair, of what I don't know. So 77 - QQ I am somwhere close to 30%? About 1/3 of the pot to call.

If I fold its a long road back. Should I have avoided this decision by going all in pre-flop? Is it really a tough call at all, I am getting close to my money ( i hope) and will be super short stacked if I fold.

Kind of painted myself in a corner I thought.

Anyway, any and all advice/comments let me have it.

Edit: Stupid title I know, I meant to change it.

Edit edit: My math is screwed was I getting 2:1 on my money?

 

[t1riel]

Well, your third shortest stack right now and almost 10X the big blind left. Not to many players in the pot so chances are you will be only up against this one player. I would have pushed preflop after the raise. Three things will happen:

1) He will fold and you will win the pot.

2) He will call and you win the pot on the showdown.

3) He will call and you're out of the tournament.

2 out of 3 isn't bad and you need to get some chips soon. You may not get a better opporunity than this.

 

[zebranky]

not the worst decision...

Well, there's only two ways of playing this hand, really, and you've suggested both. Folding just isn't an option when you're already a fairly short stack, and you're holding one of the better hands you're likely to see.

Me, I'd play it the way you did. Call to the flop, and if you don't hit, leave it alone and fold. Yes, it's a long road back to anywhere near the average. But all you need is a chip and a seat, right? You still have enough chips to make one more decent play, so its not the worst thing that can happen.

Then there's the TAG approach. Your stack is only 12xBB - so the logic is that if you just call, the pot is 8xBB, and your maximum bet on the flop can only be 8xBB - which may not take someone off a drawing hand (because you can't "break" the pot odds they're getting). Given that you will never have fold equity on a later bet, you should put the money in now while you still might have fold equity. With AK, at worst you are probably going to be racing against a lower pair.

I've seen both tactics used successfully - neither one is more correct than the other, IMHO. with a lack of information about my opponent, I tend to take the safe route, but If I know the betting habits of my opponent (ie, folds a small pair to a raise PF, or bets out with KJ or JT, for example), I'd be tempted to push.

Tough break, but I don't think you did anything wrong - there's very little point to calling on the flop, because you're still just an A high - not a situation I want to play against someone who just went all-in in a tournament situation.

 

[ChuckTs]

All you're doing with this play is getting your money in as a bigger dog than you would have had you pushed PF. I mean think about it: you're now only drawing to six outs should your opponent have an overpair (not AA, KK, or one that's hit a set). That's only 2 more outs than a gutshot.

Get it in preflop when you could be up against a weaker ace, big king or a weak pair that you might be able to get to fold.

And yes, you were getting ~2:1 pot odds. [The preflop 1600 + his 1600]:[your 1600 to call]. So 3200:1600 = 2:1.

 

[stormswa]

yes

All you're doing with this play is getting your money in as a bigger dog than you would have had you pushed PF. I mean think about it: you're now only drawing to six outs should your opponent have an overpair (not AA, KK, or one that's hit a set). That's only 2 more outs than a gutshot.

Get it in preflop when you could be up against a weaker ace, big king or a weak pair that you might be able to get to fold.

And yes, you were getting ~2:1 pot odds. [The preflop 1600 + his 1600]:[your 1600 to call]. So 3200:1600 = 2:1.

you basicly said exactly what I have been trying to put into words last couple minutes Chuck.

Like Chuck said you got yourself in a terrible spot, you were a shortstack preflop you had 2 options here. Either get it all in preflop on what is most likley a coinflip or get out and wait for better spot. Basicly these games are a donkfest and very easy to beat so this guy could have anything.

I really cant add much more then what has been said.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

This is really horrible. You only have one reasonable choice - shove preflop and guarantee you're gonna get to see all 5 board cards if he has a low-mid pp, or get all your money in while ahead if he has Ax/Kx (if he has AA/KK there's not a lot you can do).

If the stacks were reversed you could perhaps pull a stop n go (call preflop and shove on any flop), but he has you decently covered so I don't really think this is the spot for it.

You can't call preflop and check-fold if you miss. Any play that voluntarily leaves you with less than 10bbs is horrible and absolutely has to be avoided. Read HoH2 if you don't know why - it explains it far better than I can.

Think about it this way, if you're going to check-call a shove on a flop which has possibly helped your opponent and definitely not helped you, why are you not shoving preflop? You gain fold equity and are far more likely to be getting your chips in while ahead in any case.

 

[Lo-Dog]

I agree

with the piss or get off the pot crowd. All in PF would have been much better.

What I have failed to mention is I just got back from being rivered and pussied out on the all in PF but could not fold either. Once I screwed that up I figured to do what I should have in the first place.

However.... I have folded some pretty good hands in this spot in the past (PF) which gets me ITM but not enough wins.

 

[gord962]

This looks like a blind steal from MP since SB and BB are small stacked. For me I push AKs - villain most likely folds here. The post flop bet again looks like he completely missed the flop and is hoping you fold since the flop most likely missed your hand as well (which it did) since there are just rags on the board.

 

[Dorkus Malorkus]

I don't necessarily think it's a steal - villain's raise is commiting him to calling a shove from either of the blinds because of his pot odds.

Of course he may just want it to appear that it's commiting him, but can we give the average $4 tourney donk that much credit? I said you gain fold equity by shoving, but it's not a lot of fold equity - villain is calling in the majority of cases here, but we shouldn't let that bother us too much, as no option other than shoving is feasible, and with 12BBs we don't mind racing.

 

[Kenzie 96]

Gotta fira at this preflop, coming off getting rivered probably increases your chances of getting called by a marginal hand.

 

[mrsnake3695]

For once i agree with most. This is a shove pre-flop. AK is the kind of hand that you want to see all 5 cards with, not see the flop then fold and be in a bad chip position. Considering that in tourneys you must gather chips to stay ahead of the blinds this may be you best chance for a good while. With ace-king you are a toss up agains a pair (other than AA KK of course) and dominate any other non-pair hand. Push, you will have no fold equity after the flop if you just call here.

 

[Lo-Dog]

Thanks for the replies, result below.

SocaBeat said, "ouch"
*** SHOW DOWN ***
PLF_DBA_MAN: shows [As Ks] (a pair of Kings)
SocaBeat: shows [9c 9h] (a pair of Nines)
PLF_DBA_MAN collected 5060 from pot
SocaBeat said, "terrible call"
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 5060 | Rake 0
Board [2h 6d 5c Kc 4h]
Seat 1: PLF_DBA_MAN (small blind) showed [As Ks] and won (5060) with a pair of Kings
Seat 3: j00kerman (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: WillieBe@min folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: ! PJ KIRK ! folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: fido991 folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 7: SocaBeat showed [9c 9h] and lost with a pair of Nines
Seat 8: improvartist folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: usamausama (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)

P.S I do actually play some hands well but what fun would those be to post.

 

[gord962]

nice catch, suckout.