$Freeroll NLHE MTT: Top pair vs. raise All-in

Dzob

Dzob

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Should I fold after an opponent's raise? I think I made a mistake, how do you think?


pokerstars, Hold'em No Limit - 800/1,600 (150 ante) - 6 players
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Fanfarrão 1983 (UTG): 25,770 (16 bb)
Victor_Od (MP): 23,271 (15 bb)
AgentXtreme (CO): 32,077 (20 bb)
dzob_killer (BU): 29,723 (19 bb)
RagNar8710 (SB): 14,245 (9 bb)
scokyl (BB): 41,179 (26 bb)

Pre-Flop: (3,300) Hero (dzob_killer) is BTN with K J
2 players fold, AgentXtreme (CO) raises to 3,200, dzob_killer (BU) calls 3,200, 2 players fold

Flop: (9,700) 5 6 4 (2 players)
AgentXtreme (CO) bets 3,201, dzob_killer (BU) calls 3,201

Turn: (16,102) K (2 players)
AgentXtreme (CO) checks, dzob_killer (BU) bets 4,831, AgentXtreme (CO) raises to 25,526 (all-in), dzob_killer (BU) calls 18,341 (all-in)

River: (62,446) 5 (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: 62,446

Showdown:
AgentXtreme (CO) shows Q K (two pair, Kings and Fives - higher kicker)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 74%, Flop: 84%, Turn: 93%, River: 100%)

dzob_killer (BU) shows K J (two pair, Kings and Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 26%, Flop: 16%, Turn: 7%, River: 0%)

AgentXtreme (CO) wins 62,446
 
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fundiver199

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PreflopI am not a huge fan of flatting mini-raises preflop, because it give BB such an awesome price to come into the pot as well. But in this particular situation you stack size was rather awkward for 3-betting. You are not getting a good risk-reward by jamming 19BB over a mini-raise, and if you wanted to 3-bet and leave yourself room enough to fold, it would have to be pretty small, and then CO is always going to call. So I guess preflop is ok, but personally I might just jam in a freeroll following a bit of a "go strong or go home" approach.

Flop
You missed completely, but its likely, he did as well, so I am ok with floating this very small bet in position. We are mostly hoping, that he will check the turn and allow us to take it away.

Turn
Nice bet for value, and even though it sucks, that he check-jammed, I think, your hand is to strong to fold for 19BB. He certainly have some hands, that beat you, but he could also show up with KT or K9. Or just a random bluff, because he misenterpret your small bet as a weak hand trying to steal the pot. So I think, you just have to stick it in here and hope to be good. This time you were not, but overall you played it fine. Its just a bit of a cooler, that he had the exactly one pip better hand.
 
FF2586

FF2586

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Hey!

I am no expert, but in my modest opinion you having around 20 bbs and kq off you should've shoved or folded pre.
Other than that in these freerolls I advice you to try new things. Calling pre to just hit is so old fashionned.

Gl and thanks for sharing
 
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marvbake

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I would’ve folded but it’s easy to say esp after reading about the showdown. He raised preflop. Then c-bet the flop and then check raised huge on the turn.

He could have QQ and JJ, TT there but to c-raise so big all in on the turn? Don’t think QQ and JJ in his range. Could be AK there. KQ, KJ, and maybe KT.

Also could have AA. Could have a set. Or even two pair or a pair plus open ended(but unlikely given the caliber of play in the tournament)

You can realistically beat KT and a pair with a combo draw, but that’s it. You’re chopping with KJ.

Take pair plus combo draws out of his range since they don’t seem likely.

Now you only beat KT and chop with KJ, but the rest of his range has you beat.

Generally for such a big check raise on the turn I don’t give my opponents credit for being able to raise me light there unless I have prior history where he’s shown capable of check shoving light, so I’m definitely folding.
 
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fundiver199

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Generally for such a big check raise on the turn I don’t give my opponents credit for being able to raise me light there unless I have prior history where he’s shown capable of check shoving light, so I’m definitely folding.

In this particular instance I will disagree at least a little bit. I think, someone using a "tough guy" screenname like "AgentXtreme" and playing a freeroll is certainly able to turn some random hand into a bluff, which had decided to give up, but when he face such a small bet, he decide to play back at Hero.

Its a pretty weird line to take with KQ actually. Why did he not just continue betting for value? He nearly turned his hand into a value bluff and just got very lucky, that Hero had one of the few worse hands, that would pay him.
 
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marvbake

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In this particular instance I will disagree at least a little bit. I think, someone using a "tough guy" screenname like "AgentXtreme" and playing a freeroll is certainly able to turn some random hand into a bluff, which had decided to give up, but when he face such a small bet, he decide to play back at Hero.
You can't draw such a conclusion from a name lol. I'm saying boldness is definitely a skill of its own that alot of players don't use enough.

I didn't even pay attention to the bet sizing relative to the pot. I was focusing on the stack sizes instead. He can completely air bluff there. It's definitely possible given the bet size of hero in relation to the pot. His hand seems under-repped there.
 
puzzlefish

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At this level villain's bets don't have to make sense. Basically he only wants better hands to call him.

As for JKo, it is exactly that as a hand. You hit top pair, you will never know whether you are good or not. Call this a cooler if you want, when you're paying off with your whole stack for top pair mediocre kicker. I don't think it's a good enough hand to continue with when you get raised on the turn.
 
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fundiver199

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You can't draw such a conclusion from a name lol.

I know, and I am not saying, that I mainly base my decisions on tells like this. But they do exist in my opinion. On poker sites, where people can choose their own avitar or picture, someone with a picture of a fast car is typically not the most passive player for instance. Someone with the picture of a famous poker player is typically rather serious about the game. So you can gain some information from the way, people present themselfes to the other players. Of course someone might be clever enough to give away reverse tells, but typically people are actually rather honest.
 
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fundiver199

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I didn't even pay attention to the bet sizing relative to the pot. I was focusing on the stack sizes instead. He can completely air bluff there. It's definitely possible given the bet size of hero in relation to the pot. His hand seems under-repped there.


Exactly. When Hero made top pair on the turn, the stack to pot ratio was fairly awkward. Going all in would be an overbet and rarely get action from worse hands, but if Hero went to large, there would be very little left for the river. Maybe the better play here is actually to check back the turn and then either call a river bet or bet if checked to. This would definitely underrep our hand and reduce the risk of us going broke. I am not, sure hands like 77-QQ are going to pay more than one bet anyway, and he is never folding a draw to such a small bet. I am not a fan of bet-folding top pair with so little left behind. I think, we get bluffed to often, especially in a freeroll.
 
venycyos

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Some days, I give up, others however will all in with worse. Free does not have much logic.
 
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marvbake

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Exactly. When Hero made top pair on the turn, the stack to pot ratio was fairly awkward. Going all in would be an overbet and rarely get action from worse hands, but if Hero went to large, there would be very little left for the river. Maybe the better play here is actually to check back the turn and then either call a river bet or bet if checked to. This would definitely underrep our hand and reduce the risk of us going broke. I am not, sure hands like 77-QQ are going to pay more than one bet anyway, and he is never folding a draw to such a small bet. I am not a fan of bet-folding top pair with so little left behind. I think, we get bluffed to often, especially in a freeroll.

Another thing too is that hero flatted the flop. Even though it's low it's still coordinated, so it can hit hero's range ALOT. The opponent can easily check to give hero a false sense of security his flopped pair is really good, to check value shove.

I'm saying players are capable of checking shoving light there, but you also keep in mind that the opponent saw hero flat his flop bet. Maybe he thought he could rep Kx because he puts his opponent on less, but he might also actually check Kx to throw his opponent off because he assumed he paired the flop. Lol alot of leveling going on here.
 
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fundiver199

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Lol alot of leveling going on here.

Its a freeroll, so if I had to guess, his thought process was probably something like this:

Flop
"I missed completely, but I was the preflop aggressor, so I C-bet small and hope, my opponent just fold. If he call, I have no idea, what I am going to do later".

Turn
"I made top pair, but its still a very coordinated board, so I am not really sure, where I am. I check."

Facing turn bet
"What is that small bet? What the hell. I have top pair, but I dont want to see a river, so I go all in."
 
Jon Poker

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The biggest mistake here is calling behind with KJ - it's a marginal hand and often when we do flop a K we still have a good chance of us having kicker problems...this is a prime example of that. If we are going to play the KJ here I like the 3bet while we are in position. If we get raised just fold and move on.

Anyhow we do call and we go to a flop of all connected small junk. Our opponent cbets and we call with K hi....why? What is the best outcome for us here? If we are behind Ax we are drawing to 3 outs unless our opponent has AK or AJ in which we are only drawing to 3 outs! Bad spot to call with K hi here when we arnt really sure how good we are if we do hit. I would fold and move on.

We bink the K and our opponent checks to us...I dont hate the bet here, but I would probably check back - again we MAY have kicker problems and it helps us balance our range when we check back top pairs.

That being said - we bet and then get raised....what hands that would be raising us are we beating? Does KT really put in a raise here? One for all their chips? This is a snap fold, we are never beating anything here but a stone bluff. We see we do have kicker problems and our opponent wins the pot. I wouldve expected his K to be even stronger when he shoves here, but KQ is still the 2nd nut King when we are talking single pair hands so...anyhow. we value towned ourselves.

Your hand histories seem to have alot of these spots - my advice to you is try and recognize these spots on game and put thought into what you are doing and why you are doing it. Stop stacking off with marginal hands lol

Good luck at the tables!
 
puzzlefish

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So now there is the camp that thinks hero should hero-call and bluff catch with KJo and the other camp that thinks hero should not be in the hand after the flop, let alone the turn.

Which one is correct? 乁( •_• )ㄏ
 
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fundiver199

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The biggest mistake here is calling behind with KJ - it's a marginal hand and often when we do flop a K we still have a good chance of us having kicker problems...this is a prime example of that. If we are going to play the KJ here I like the 3bet while we are in position. If we get raised just fold and move on.

Against an EP or even MP open I would agree, but this was a CO open, and then his range will be wider. This time he had us dominated, but KT and K9 are just as likely as KQ or AK. He can probably even have hands like K8s, K7s and K6s as well. As for 3-betting stack size was awkward for it. If we 3-bet to 5-6BB, and he just call, the outcome would have been the same. Flop goes check-check, and when both make top pair on the turn, the rest of the chips goes in.
 
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fundiver199

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So now there is the camp that thinks hero should hero-call and bluff catch with KJo and the other camp that thinks hero should not be in the hand after the flop, let alone the turn.


Which one is correct? 乁( •_• )ㄏ

Is it not great? Shows that poker is not dead :)

Kidding aside some spots are just so close, that there are no clear-cut black or white answers. Another point is, that its easy to get results oriented. So for the best discussion it would have been better to hide them and stop the hand history with:

Turn:
(16,102) K
(2 players)
AgentXtreme (CO) checks,
dzob_killer (BU) bets 4,831
,
AgentXtreme (CO)
raises to 25,526 (all-in)
,
dzob_killer (BU)?
 
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fundiver199

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That being said - we bet and then get raised....what hands that would be raising us are we beating? Does KT really put in a raise here? One for all their chips?


When stacks are this short, a raise does not have the same meaning, as when they are deep. Its pretty normal for people to just get it in with anything, that caught a piece of the board. So yeah. I certainly think, that KJ and KT takes the same line and also hands like 76s, A6, A7 or whatever else, he decides to turn into a bluff. We need 30% equity to call. I think, we have way more than that, especially in a freeroll.

Sometimes I find it usefull to simplify things a little bit. We have top pair decent kicker in a pot, where the SPR on the flop was less than 3. Unless the board is really ugly like monotone or with a 1-liner to a straight, we are typically not making a mistake by stacking off in that situation and not thinking to much about it.

What if he had continued to bet? Were we going to fold then? Or if he check-called? Were we then checking back the river? I think, its "no" to both of that, and in that case why does it matter, that he choose to check-raise the turn instead of one of the other lines? I feel, people sometimes read to much into, what their opponent does, and think it gives them perfect information.
 
Dzob

Dzob

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Thanks for analyzing this hand - I am impressed with your great commitment and high skills.

I could have played preflop better (fold or raise 3bet).
After the opponent's raise-allin I felt I was behind but too many chips were involved in the game to fold.

I often play according to the saying "If you don't know where you are in the hand, it means you are in deep sh.." :D And then you should fold.
 
SuzdalDEcor

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I think in freeroll you must fold. Opponents cant bluff this spot
 
Jon Poker

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I often play according to the saying "If you don't know where you are in the hand, it means you are in deep sh.." :D And then you should fold.


I think more often than not when we find ourselves not knowing where we are in the hand it is because of some weird line we took and the end results have not narrowed or polarized our opponents range - leaving us to wonder what to do next. Point is it's easy to find ourselves in these spots, it's all about learning to navigate things post flop, take the actions into consideration and play accordingly.
 
puzzlefish

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And still possibly be wrong in the end. But I think the point is to be right in the long term if placed in the same situation an infinite number of times and playing it the same way.
 
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mara2259

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Before the turn, everything was not perfect but bearable. The villain's check-overbet and your kicker's weakness preclude an all-in on your part. Activity before the flop and post-flop does not imply that the villain has a kicker below the jack. In addition, you obviously did not take into account the possibility of a pair of aces, 3 options for a set and 2 options for a straight. In this situation, you could beat either stupidity or pure bluff.
:elefant:
 
swoopdonk

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I would have folded to the bet after the flop. I always rather raise after the flop in last position than flat call and I'm obviously not raising with high card K going into the turn. Cautious but prudent. I figure it cost me 3200 to see the flop. Next.
 
B

Brawo

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It is hard to say to be honest, If we think about his range, king of course is there.
He has KQ and he knows with high probability you don't have kings or AK because you would make 3-bet often times.
But you call on the flop, float here is often because flop is out of his range. Turn is unlucky for you, hard to fold.
You can play low, medium pairs like this and you can have sets right here right now. Tough really, but board is safety for him with KQ and it is interesting that he wanted to scare you. Very likely you would make bet on the river and then all-in is understandable for value, not know.

I think call is explicable, but If I were you I would - probably - fold, what worse does he may have? Answer is nothing , often enough.
 
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