$Freeroll NLHE MTT: $ NLHE MTT: 30BB SRP SB vs BTN

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Tux97

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I would appreciate any input regarding this hand especially from anyone with access to different solvers. I learned something from it yesterday but would like to confirm!
In a 30BB SRP
SB vs BTN. BTN raised & SB called.
SB has 6c5c and BTN has AsJs
Flop KdKcQs
What does SB do and ideally with what frequencies?
Thanks!
 
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Tux97

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SB check-fold, since he has absolutely nothing. Dont overthink or overcomplicate the game, and especially not when playing freerolls ;)


Thanks. It wasn't a freeroll actually but just chose that classification so the system allows me to post the hand. This was from a GTO trainer and its suggestion surprised and taught me. My initial play was identical to yours and both of us were wrong. I still would appreciate it if people with access to solvers would input this hand with the 30BB stack and post what it suggests. Thanks!
 
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This is why I am curious about this hand, specifically the flop action. How may of you would donk bet?
 

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fundiver199

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I guess, the solver wants to bluff with this hand, because its one of the worst hands in its range. How did the hand end up getting called preflop? Was this also input from the solver, or is it something, you chose? I have a hard time believing, that its GTO strategy to call such a terrible hand from SB. And if the hand should not see a flop, it kind of does not matter, how it should play the flop, if it did. GTO always go back to the first decision, which is preflop, and if you deviate there, then everything else kind of goes off the rails.
 
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Tux97

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I guess, the solver wants to bluff with this hand, because its one of the worst hands in its range. How did the hand end up getting called preflop? Was this also input from the solver, or is it something, you chose? I have a hard time believing, that its GTO strategy to call such a terrible hand from SB. And if the hand should not see a flop, it kind of does not matter, how it should play the flop, if it did. GTO always go back to the first decision, which is preflop, and if you deviate there, then everything else kind of goes off the rails.

The 65s was chosen by the solver. There is no facility for the user to choose it. They just play it on the flop. Also, someone provided me with the preflop range of another solver that chooses it too but at a low frequency as illustrated here.
 

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fundiver199

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I guess, its chosen for board coverage then, and as you say at a low frequenzy. If we play micro or low stakes games, I really think, its overkill to worry about this degree of balance, and we can just fold and feel extremely good about it :)
 
theANMATOR

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I would appreciate any input regarding this hand especially from anyone with access to different solvers. I learned something from it yesterday but would like to confirm!
In a 30BB SRP
SB vs BTN. BTN raised & SB called.
SB has 6c5c and BTN has AsJs
Flop KdKcQs
What does SB do and ideally with what frequencies?
Thanks!

SB check-fold, since he has absolutely nothing. Dont overthink or overcomplicate the game, and especially not when playing freerolls ;)


Is this the easy forum question of the week?

As FD says - none of the information is required for this - ESPECIALLY - in a freeroll.

If the site allows the player an OPEN donk FOLD option - do that.

BetOnline has it - I dont know of any other site that does.
 
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Tux97

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It wasn't a freeroll. I explained that above. Also, most of us get this wrong and don't donk it. That was why I posted the question [emoji2]
 
theANMATOR

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It wasn't a freeroll. I explained that above. Also, most of us get this wrong and don't donk it. That was why I posted the question [emoji2]

Oh sorry Tux - I missed your second post.
Still - I'm not playing what solvers tell me to play. :) Regardless of if this play is GTO approved - I'm still donk folding.

GL with the bluff though - It'll surely lead to some really interesting turns.

I kind of agree with FD - it seems the only logical reason the solver says to donk here is because it is about the worst hand we could have so - this is entirely a bluff - however I don't see it getting through no more than 50% of the time - so for me it's not a profitable move.

Now I'm actually intreagued :) To follow up - what does the solver say to do on the turn/river if you are called down? triple barrel?
 
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Yes, it's a bit surprising but that's what the solver says! And the correct play on the turn and river is check/check 100% as is shown in the image above (sorry not very clear picture!).

Anyway, it's about a 47% call preflop with the range used by the trainer. And the SB's calling range is actually a slight favourite on that flop, so that's why it donk bets. Try it yourself and see. My ranges showed equity about 53% vs 47% on that flop.
Oh sorry Tux - I missed your second post.
Still - I'm not playing what solvers tell me to play. :) Regardless of if this play is GTO approved - I'm still donk folding.

GL with the bluff though - It'll surely lead to some really interesting turns.

I kind of agree with FD - it seems the only logical reason the solver says to donk here is because it is about the worst hand we could have so - this is entirely a bluff - however I don't see it getting through no more than 50% of the time - so for me it's not a profitable move.

Now I'm actually intreagued :) To follow up - what does the solver say to do on the turn/river if you are called down? triple barrel?
 
theANMATOR

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Yes, it's a bit surprising but that's what the solver says! And the correct play on the turn and river is check/check 100% as is shown in the image above (sorry not very clear picture!).

Anyway, it's about a 47% call preflop with the range used by the trainer. And the SB's calling range is actually a slight favourite on that flop, so that's why it donk bets. Try it yourself and see. My ranges showed equity about 53% vs 47% on that flop.

Thanks for the followup Tux.

Um - we play a completely different game - you and I. :) I identify exploitative tendencies and take advantage of them.
For instance if I noticed a player continuing in the SB with a weak suited range - I would allow them to give up chips in a scenario exactly like this - and then take away the pot on the river, simply - as a player bluffing with 6 high is not able to call any bet on the river, although I would make it enticing for him to do so.

In my opinion GTO is actaully spewy and wrong in certain situations.

As a matter of fact - I just did this exact exploit no more than 10 minutes ago. Guy was continuing with any 2 suited from any position. I opened Q/J suited from the CO - he came along in the small blind - and he donk led 3 streets with 3rd pair, missing the flush. I called him down with 2nd pair Q kicker.
I noted he donk lead just under half pot on the river if he was bluffing. My read was completely accurate - after only observing this player for no more than 2 orbits.
 
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Well played ANMATOR :) But honestly, beyond a certain level, players will learn from their leaks and how other exploit them, so exploitative plays have a 'lifetime' so to speak. That's one reason why GTO is so effective especially with high rollers. You simply focus on an unexploitable strategy that's under your control. I attach a copy of a slide that sums up this nicely.
Thanks for the followup Tux.

Um - we play a completely different game - you and I. :) I identify exploitative tendencies and take advantage of them.
For instance if I noticed a player continuing in the SB with a weak suited range - I would allow them to give up chips in a scenario exactly like this - and then take away the pot on the river, simply - as a player bluffing with 6 high is not able to call any bet on the river, although I would make it enticing for him to do so.

In my opinion GTO is actaully spewy and wrong in certain situations.

As a matter of fact - I just did this exact exploit no more than 10 minutes ago. Guy was continuing with any 2 suited from any position. I opened Q/J suited from the CO - he came along in the small blind - and he donk led 3 streets with 3rd pair, missing the flush. I called him down with 2nd pair Q kicker.
I noted he donk lead just under half pot on the river if he was bluffing. My read was completely accurate - after only observing this player for no more than 2 orbits.
 

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theANMATOR

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Well played ANMATOR :) But honestly, beyond a certain level, players will learn from their leaks and how other exploit them, so exploitative plays have a 'lifetime' so to speak. That's one reason why GTO is so effective especially with high rollers. You simply focus on an unexploitable strategy that's under your control. I attach a copy of a slide that sums up this nicely.

Thanks for the slide. I have a long way to go before I hit the high roller scene - and still I think players who tout they only play GTO are still exploitable all the way up to - high buy-in online.
But when the time for me to adjust - (maybe a year or two) :) It won't be a difficult transition.

Also as far as I'm aware the best players - GTO players use a combination of both styles. They still exploit their opponents when they see a repeated tendency.

GL Tux - if you play ACR we will see each other around. :icon_thum
 
theANMATOR

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Well played ANMATOR :)

I noticed you liked my post - but I had to edit it for clarity. Just wanted you to know - so it didn't sound like I was dismissing anything you said.

Cheers!
 
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