$Freeroll NLHE MTT: NLHE-K8o-small turn bet?

SofaKingCrazy

SofaKingCrazy

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Hi,
I thought it would be fun to discuss this hand i played a few days ago.
This is a game played by regulars so they know each other better than I know them.

The opponent has been loose with his calls and I get a free flop with K8o.

I check mid pair on flop looking for more improvement of my hand before getting too agro vs loose players who probably have better math knowledge of the game than I use.

On the turn i hit 2 pair and Sin leads out with 120 on a pot of 225.
I raise 80% to 318 and my villain call and Sin folds.

River comes and pot is 981. I lead out with 40% = 404 and is called.

I find when I bet more I get less callers so I tend to keep my bets a bit smaller to induce a call from weaker holdings but with flush draw on the board I felt 80% on the turn was enough to make someone fold the draw.

Should I have over pot bet the turn or what action would you take here or was this player just too loose and not caring about the results?

Sorry about the text. I tried to use the HC here but it says the history is in the wrong format. If someone could help with this also it would be appreciated.

pokerstars Home Game Hand #81112972544: {Drunk Tank} Tournament #565069714, 500+125+30 Hold'em No Limit - Level IV (30/60) - 2012/05/27 21:33:25 ET
Table '565069714 2' 9-max Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: hobojim11247 (2410 in chips)
Seat 2: Sinman64 (6009 in chips)
Seat 3: buzzonbi (2949 in chips)
Seat 4: megg23 (3606 in chips)
Seat 5: Brayleegirl (3669 in chips) is sitting out
Seat 6: joker41673 (2360 in chips)
Seat 7: tom905 (2880 in chips)
Seat 8: Nobisquit (3530 in chips)
Seat 9: julestubby25 (2082 in chips)
hobojim11247: posts the ante 5
Sinman64: posts the ante 5
buzzonbi: posts the ante 5
megg23: posts the ante 5
Brayleegirl: posts the ante 5
joker41673: posts the ante 5
tom905: posts the ante 5
Nobisquit: posts the ante 5
julestubby25: posts the ante 5
Brayleegirl: posts small blind 30
joker41673: posts big blind 60
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to joker41673 [Kc 8h]
tom905: folds
Nobisquit: folds
julestubby25: calls 60
hobojim11247: folds
Sinman64: calls 60
buzzonbi: folds
megg23: folds
Brayleegirl: folds
joker41673: checks
*** FLOP *** [Tc 5d 8c]
joker41673: checks
julestubby25: checks
Sinman64: checks
*** TURN *** [Tc 5d 8c] [Kh]
joker41673: checks
julestubby25: checks
Sinman64: bets 120
joker41673: raises 198 to 318
julestubby25: calls 318
Sinman64: folds
*** RIVER *** [Tc 5d 8c Kh] [3c]
joker41673: bets 404
julestubby25: calls 404
*** SHOW DOWN ***
joker41673: shows [Kc 8h] (two pair, Kings and Eights)
 
SofaKingCrazy

SofaKingCrazy

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What a way to make a person feel welcomed.
:rolleyes:
 
B

BlueNowhere

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Flop is standard. Turn I'm probably leading for ~t170 because people with any pair type hands won't go anywhere as well as quite a few draws so I think it's a fairly easy v-bet and I'm calling a shove (if he isn't passive w/draws). On blank rivers I'd probably bet again for 70% of pot as villain either has something or doesn't. On non-blank rivers I like leading small as you did as there is still a decent amount of value to be had from villains range with intention of folding if he comes over top.
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Well hello SofaKingCrazy, I can't really say if you should've over bet the pot or not but that you should be pleased with getting the max for it (That you feel you got)...
 
SofaKingCrazy

SofaKingCrazy

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Thx for the replies

i was considering leading out on the turn but decided to go with a check/raise instead at the last moment.

i really thought that my villain would have folded to the raise but it was the lead better who folded and that caught me off guard.

i guess what puts me on tilt the most about the villain was that he didn't have even a decent draw and still felt he was ahead after i lead out on the river. he had 24c.

sighhhhh.... maybe next time
 
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BlueNowhere

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Why did you think looking to c/r was going to have better ev than leading? (I'm asking to try and get you to think about why you do certain things in certain spots)
 
W

WiZZiM

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I check mid pair on flop looking for more improvement of my hand before getting too agro vs loose players who probably have better math knowledge of the game than I use.

Checking isn't bad, but i'd def prefer leading at this pot. We probably have the best hand and most likely don't need to improve. So we really want to kind of put a little bet out there, if we win the pot, great. But we want to charge two players some money at least to see the turn since there are so many cards that can hit them, in terms of draws, and also in terms of random overcards like J9s or something. So yeah, don't really need to improve, i think the standard here is to just lead for 1/3 - 1/2 pot.

If we get raised we have a relatively easy fold, if we get called we can go from there, as long as our bet isn't huge the pot won't get out of our control.


On the turn i hit 2 pair and Sin leads out with 120 on a pot of 225.
I raise 80% to 318 and my villain call and Sin folds.

Lead, there's no guarantee the other players will bet/have something. So just lead and hope to build the pot. The other problem with checkraising is that even fish know it's a "strong" move. So it looks really strong when we have a really strong hand. Also, if it checks around, we just got to the river without making them put in a cent and we had a strong hand on the flop anyways.

River comes and pot is 981. I lead out with 40% = 404 and is called.
Once he calls our raise we can probably go a touch bigger, perhaps 50-60%, or even higher if you think he will call with a random pair.

I find when I bet more I get less callers so I tend to keep my bets a bit smaller to induce a call from weaker holdings
Decent logic, however you need to recognize when fish are in play, if he is really fishy, then bet a little larger, but obviously not too much. His stack has a lot to do with this i feel. Like bet an amount that leaves him with a decent amount behind, if you put a player to a decision for a huge chunk of his stack, then it's harder for him to call, just common sense really. It's a bit of a balancing act however.

but with flush draw on the board I felt 80% on the turn was enough to make someone fold the draw. We don't really want them to fold a draw, we're ahead of draws, so we want to charge them enough so it's tecnically a mistake for them to call, but also give the other holdings in his range room to continue. Like middle pairs or whatever.

Should I have over pot bet the turn or what action would you take here or was this player just too loose and not caring about the results?

Hard to say, that's an in game read you need to develop with experience. I think it's always best to bet an amount you think will get a call a higher % of the time, rahter than a bet that might get caled some of the time. It just allows him to make calls more often with weaker holdings. But it also has a lot to do with his range, and what hands he will likely have in this spot. I'd suggest against a fish like this that a larger bet would be better, but again, you don't want to put his whole stack in.
 
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WiZZiM

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fwiw i used to check in spots like this on the flop, but i found betting small is better. We get to build the pot without losing pot control. We also take control of the bet amounts. We also find out pretty quickly if someone has us beat, if they raise it's a pretty clera fold, we don't even have great equity vs a flush draw and if we are ahead, we charge players a small bit to see the turn, nothing worse than getting to the turn with a middle pair and someone bets turn/river and we call down without having any idea if they hit or not.

If someone thinks that we're not charging enough to "push out draws", well we are because the implied odds this player is getting is really small, because we're a good player, and we're never going to be putting our stacks in here, so his implied odds suck most likely.
 
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